Ep. #475: Lacey Dunn on the Pros and Cons of Organic Versus Conventional Foods

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Hello and welcome to another episode of muscle for life. I’m Michael Matthews. And we’re here today to talk about organic food, which is a big business. These days. I was a little bit surprised when I pulled up the numbers. I knew it was big, but I didn’t know it was 50 billion last year. Alone in revenue big, and that’s just here in the U S and that number is projected to exceed 135 billion by 2025.

Yeah, it’s really that big. Now, what does it mean though? What does the organic label mean and is it worth it? Because we all know that organic food is a lot more expensive than conventional food. And the big question, of course, is, are we really improving our health by eating organic food? Or is it mostly a marketing ploy to exploit the common belief that if something is more quote unquote natural, it’s just automatically better for us.

There are many people arguing these questions. Some people say that you should eat as much organic food as possible, full stop, that you should avoid conventional anything. Produce, dairy, meat, and especially GMO. You gotta avoid GMO at all costs. On the other hand, There are people who are saying that there’s really nothing special about organic food whatsoever, beyond its price tag.

As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. And I invited Lacey Dunn on the podcast to break this all down. down. Now, if you are not familiar with her, Lacey is a personal trainer. She is a registered dietician with a master’s degree in nutrition, and she is the owner of Uplift Nutrition, where she provides science based diet and fitness coaching for people all around the world.

If you would like to learn the truth about organic versus conventional food, and what this ultimately means for your long term health and being, this episode’s for you. Laci, thanks for taking the time to come on my podcast. 

Lacey: Hello. Thank you so much. It’s such an honor to be on here. 

Mike: Yeah, I think this is me reciprocating for the first time, right?

Because am I remembering that right? You had me on your podcast some time ago. 

Lacey: I did. Oh my gosh. It makes me feel old. It’s been about a year. 

Mike: How old are you? 

Lacey: I am 24 and I’m stopping counting now. 

Mike: Oh, really? Okay. I’m 35 thirties are so much better than twenties. Actually. 

Lacey: Oh that’s good to hear.

There’s hope 

Mike: you just keep working to improve yourself in your twenties. And then in your thirties, you look back and you will marvel at how little you knew, despite how much you thought you knew about life and how it works. And that wasn’t a bad place in my twenties, but my thirties is much better. So you do have that to look forward to.

Lacey: Awesome. 

Mike: But that’s not what we’re here to talk about. We’re here to talk about organic food. And this is something that I’ve written a little bit about, spoken a little bit about, but it was a long time ago. And it’s something that I am asked about fairly often. I realized that I need to have more female guests because not by.

Intention just, a lot of my podcasts are just monologues, me explaining things, but then a lot of times the interviews just happen to be dudes. I was like, I need to get more women on. So I thought of you and here we are to talk about organic food. 

Lacey: Yeah, I’m excited because this is something I’m asked all the time.

Do you want Do I need to eat organic? What is the difference between organic and conventional foods? The food labeling and food marketing and food companies, the questions that I get because of all this is just crazy. And the amount of misleading labels that’s everywhere just makes me want to slam my head on a wall.

So I’m really excited to be on here talking about this. 

Mike: Instead of slamming your head into the wall. 

Lacey: That would be great. 

Mike: So let’s just start at the top there. What is organic food and how does it differ from conventional? 

Lacey: Organic is just a marketing term and a word for how the farming is done. So organic farming and raising organic vertebrae, animals, it’s a process done without the use of toxic and synthetic pesticides and fertilizers.

Genetic engineering. Without the use of antibiotics or synthetic growth hormones, artificial flavors, colors, or preservatives, and then no use of sewage, sludge, and irridation. These animals are also raised a certain way, so they have to be Raised without the use of those antibiotics or growth hormones.

They have to be given access to the outdoors Shade clean dry bedding and shelter. They have to be given direct access to air And places to run around but that’s essentially what’s going on What it means now, there’s more when we dive into what the differences are nutritionally, but overall organic versus conventional is basically how they were raised, how they were treated and how the farming methods are different.

Mike: As far as plant foods go, it’d be the farming practices, how the plants would be, what related to the soil, the chemicals used. 

Lacey: Correct. And I just wanted to dive further in and say, just because they aren’t using synthetic that are not using pesticides and herbicides. They are able to use certain organic ones and actually there are some and people tend to say oh you know it’s all natural so it’s healthier for us but there are some natural pesticides that are actually act the exact same way as different synthetic pesticides.

So things to keep in mind, organic farming can use pesticides and herbicides, just quote unquote natural products. And what I really like about organic farming is that they are required to do more crop rotation and more Environmental friendly practices with their farming. So they have to switch from like wheat to cotton or to soybeans.

So they have to do all these rotations to try and keep the soil as diverse and healthy as possible. 

Mike: And so given those descriptions, obviously it sounds like a good thing. It’s easy to understand why many people think I should definitely be eating organic food then if I can afford the bill.

Lacey: Yeah. And. I’m all about organic just because I’ve done my own research. I’m willing to pay that extra buck, there are some downsides to organic farming with organic farming. You’re not going to be able to use those pesticides and herbicides. So that is going to increase pest attack. That is going to possibly decrease production of food and increase food waste.

And as we know, food insecurity, food waste, that’s a huge issue nowadays, especially in the U S. So if you’re eating organic, you are possibly contributing to increasing that food insecurity possibly. So just things to keep in mind. Cause I know a lot of people who are organic are all about saving the environment and potentially people who are like green, this green, that let’s go vegan, vegetarian, save the animals, save the world, conserve the environment.

But they don’t know also that. conventional farming is a way to conserve the environment. 

Mike: Of course, then you go, Okay, if you want to get granular what are you supporting? Then if you support conventional farming and even looking at the chemicals so like glyphosate. Is that something that is allowed with organic farming?

Do you know? 

Lacey: No, it’s not at all. 

Mike: And the reason why I bring that up for people wondering is, although I haven’t personally looked much into the research, the maker of it, it’s Monsanto, I think, right? It’s the maker of it. 

Lacey: Yes, it is Monsanto. 

Mike: They recently lost at least one big lawsuit linking it to cancer and very random.

I know his name is Brent was the attorney who pushed it through. I met him. He was a friend, just met him circumstantially when I was a teenager. Very randomly. I was like, what is that Brent? Anyway. So I randomly know what’s his last name is a search with a W anyway. So I don’t know him anymore, but I just was like, That’s very random, but Hey, go Brent.

So there are legitimate concerns over the safety of glyphosate. And of course it depends on how much you’re exposed to, but then there are environmental concerns in terms of, okay, what happens to the chemical after it’s sprayed all of these crops? And then where does it go from there? And how does it get into our bodies in a number of different ways, even disrelated to its original use and so forth.

So maybe just. Take it from here, Lacey, but my understanding with organic versus conventional, and I actually eat mostly organic food simply because I do think it makes sense to try to reduce my exposure to potentially harmful chemicals, even if it’s just smaller amounts of chemicals, because Also, you got to look at chemical exposure more globally.

A good example of this also is with estrogen mimicking chemicals. If you take one individual path or method of exposure and you isolate that and you look at it and you go, Oh, that’s not a big deal. It’s a pretty low amount, whatever. But then if you don’t realize that you’re actually experiencing that type of dose.

In nine different ways due to the foods that you eat and maybe the shampoo and the soap and the toothpaste and other things that you use and that you put into your body and on your skin, that your total exposure to these chemicals can actually be high enough to make a difference. And so I view organic food as one way to just reduce my exposure to chemicals that could collectively cause issues over time.

And I know there is a bit more. Nutrition in some organic foods. Not that’s a huge thing, but if the produce that I eat has anywhere from, let’s say, 15 to 40 percent more nutrients, I’m happy about that because that’s one of the main reasons I’m eating the fruits and vegetables. At this point, I enjoy eating them, but I also know that they’re Okay.

These are the foods I need to eat to get the essential nutrients to stay healthy. Those are my thoughts on organic and why I mostly eat organic. For me, I guess it’s mostly plant, but I don’t eat very many animal products. I eat some chicken every day. I don’t actually don’t know if it’s organic and maybe I have some red meat once or twice a week and some dairy here and there, but I’m mostly eating plant foods anyway.

Lacey: Yeah. I’m all about reducing that toxic burden. I like to call it. Oxidative burden because people freak out when they hear the word toxic, but reducing that oxidative burden is really important because like you said, we have things thrown at us every single day from car exhaust to parabens to BPA and plastics to what we use as women, whether it be fragrances or what we have our makeup with or what we wash things with even our own water.

Mike: Moisturizers like my wife covers herself in lotion every day. As do probably many women, and so I think worth considering what is in that product because of course what goes on your skin 

Lacey: goes straight into your body. 

Mike: Yeah. It gets into your blood and gets all over your body. 

Lacey: Just things to think about.

I think what’s really important to note for your listeners is that Almost like 98, 99 percent of pesticides and herbicides can be washed off your produce. So that is really reducing your exposure just by washing your produce. But of course, it’s all up to you, the individual, the consumer, as long as you know what you’re doing and you’re doing it not because of fear mongering, but because it’s like a choice for your own overall health.

Then I say going organic is great for reducing that oxidative burden. 

Mike: I agree. And as far as nutritional quality goes, I touched on that a little bit, but can you talk a little bit more to the specifics that is also a common reason why people think that they should be eating organic foods is that they as a blanket statement, oh, organic foods are way more nutritious than conventional.

Lacey: Yes. I’m glad you mentioned that. So there are a few studies and overall the literature is very mixed and whether it’s done in the U S or Europe or different countries. There have been systematic reviews, which is essentially looking at various different clinical trials, overall picture, and this gives us more credibility for knowing what the results are and what that means.

But overall, organic farming, we see organic produce have more polyphenols. What does this mean? That polyphenols can help reduce that oxidative stress and combat free radicals that of course attack our DNA and contributed to things like chronic inflammation and cancer. For organic milk. Products. We do see that organic milk has more Omega threes, but it does have lower amounts of things like iodine and selenium.

So minerals for poultry products and different meat products, organic foods have more Omega threes and less monounsaturated fats, which of course, monounsaturated fats and saturated fats are good in amounts. But nowadays we have way too many Omega six fats and those conventional food products and conventional animal products have more way more omega sixes than omega threes.

So the organic farming has more omega threes. And then in regards to produce and fruits, it’s very much mixed on what nutrients are more or less in organic or conventional. But overall what we see is organic farming has more amounts of vitamin C and flavonoids and those polyphenols, but there’s less.

Nitrogen, there’s less protein and there’s less overall minerals in organic farming. So it’s very much like a wide range of what is more, what is less. But I like to say it’s negligible, really, in regards to produce. 

Mike: So long as you’re eating enough fruits and vegetables being the primary one, then you’re going to be covering most of your nutritional basis regardless of whether it’s conventional or organic.

Lacey: True. And the most important thing is not if it’s a conventional organic, the most important thing is, are you getting a variety of fruits and vegetables in your diet? Because that right there is going to be the determining factor if you’re getting all your nutrients. 

Mike: Yeah. And do you want to speak to that a little bit?

More because I think that’s a good point where so many people, obviously they eat basically no fruits and vegetables are very little and then you have, and I’m just speaking from experience having worked with so many people over the years and they start to change their diet and they start eating some fruits and vegetables, but often they are lacking in variety.

So often it’s okay, There’s that one vegetable that they like to eat. They like sweet potato. So they’ll just, they’ll eat some of that. And they think that I have some sweet potato with my dinner, or even I have some potato with my dinner, then I’m covered. And like I’ve said this many times, just bluntly, if you’re not eating several servings of vegetables and at least a serving or two of fruit per day.

The fruit I feel is a bit optional. You could probably make up for what you’re getting from fruit. You could just eat more vegetables, but. Fruit is tasty and in there are some molecules and some fruits that you’re only going to get in those fruits. But if you’re not eating at least a few servings of vegetables, and ideally a serving or two of fruit per day, your diet is shit.

Period. Your diet is shit. I don’t care what else you’re eating. I don’t care if it’s organic. I don’t care if it’s keto. That is a shit diet. If you are getting Maybe every other day, a little bit of fruit and vegetables, like your fruit and vegetable intake is lower than it should be, then, or if you are only eating, let’s say a bit of one type of vegetable or one type of fruit, again, I’d say the vegetable is more important, either your diet’s okay, if you’re eating several servings of vegetables and a serving or two of fruit per day, and you’re getting a good variety, then your diet is good.

What are your thoughts on that? And what do you mean exactly by variety? 

Lacey: Yeah. Oh my gosh. It is so important to eat your fruits and vegetables. And it is shown in the literature. Not only do you need to get, it’s five fruits and vegetables. It’s like the minimum. But if you really want to get the anti inflammatory properties, if you want to further increase your diversity, you’re going to really get even more than that.

So it’s shown that if you get 10 servings. You’re able to decrease your cytokines and decrease CRP. So C reactive protein is definitely correlated to heavy inflammation. So what we want is we want to reduce the inflammation, combat the DNA damage, free radicals. And we want to get a variety of micronutrients because we need a variety of micronutrients in order to process all these chemical processes that are done in our body.

If we’re looking at things like, even like thyroid conversion inactive T4 to active T3 conversion requires certain micronutrients. And if you aren’t getting those, things like selenium and zinc, then you’re not actually processing and getting that active thyroid that you want. So a lot of people, what they see if they don’t get enough vitamins and minerals in their fruits and veggies is they are not processing their hormones correctly.

They’re not actually making it. enough hormones, estrogen, testosterone, all these things require certain nutrients. And if you’re not getting that, then you’re not living the right way. 

Mike: I agree. I wrote about this just recently in an article on IFYM. There is research, you may have seen this before.

There were two case studies. They were on zinc deficiencies and they were with women. By Correcting the deficiencies, their metabolic rates increased by, I’m going to get the exact numbers wrong, but I want to say it was about one woman was, I think it was in the hundred ish calories per day range.

And the other one was in the several hundred calories per day range. That’s the difference of cardio by simply fixing a zinc deficiency. And that’s just one example of when you start going down the list of common nutritional deficiencies and what happens in the body. These are. Very, not only very tangible effects, but they’re very high level effects, things that you notice immediately, and that effects that can relate to your physique, because that is what can.

Communicates best to a lot of people, especially people who are getting into fitness. And I understand in the beginning, you just want to look a certain way. The fact is that eating a nutritious diet is going to help you look the way you want to look over time. That isn’t to say that you can’t also look good eating a diet and you can find plenty of people on Instagram who do that, but that can catch up with you and can cause problems and can make it quite hard to.

Reach your body composition goals and make it quite hard to maintain the type of body composition that you want to maintain. And then of course, there’s all the long term health stuff as well. 

Lacey: Yeah, definitely all about that variety and then what I see a lot these days is women who have that zinc deficiency They develop insulin resistance.

They develop acne issues and then they develop thyroid problems So very much Oh in PMS to a lot of women who have heavy PMS or zinc deficient so there’s a lot of things in regards to deficiencies and Sometimes the deficiencies aren’t even something that you would even think that you would have.

Vitamin D deficiencies. There’s 70 percent of the population that gets sunlight. that, thinks that they have proper vitamin D that is vitamin D deficient and vitamin D deficiency. I could go on a whole entire talk about that, but you don’t want to play around with deficiencies. 

Mike: I remember from, I had written an article about vitamin D some time ago for the average person, and this doesn’t take genetic variances into account because some people convert sunlight into D3 better than others.

I think it’s African Americans. For example, it’s known that they generally just don’t convert as much sunlight into D3 as white people. But for the average person, if I remember correctly, it was, it required about 15 minutes of sun per day with about. 70 percent of skin exposed. And this was, is Florida considered tropical or yeah, it’d be tropical, not subtropical.

It was Florida sun. It was intense sun, not Northern latitude sun. And who does that? Maybe some college kids, maybe who go out sunbathing every day, but for most people, they’re not making trips outside to sunbathe. And so of course that means you can just supplement with it, but yes, that’s a good example of if you’re not getting enough vitamin D one way or another.

Many things in your body are just not going to work as well as they could or should 

Lacey: true. And just to make a note about vitamin D supplementation, because I see a lot of people do this, they will just take a vitamin D. If you’re just taking a vitamin D and you’re not getting the correct Co factors that you need, AKA K2, and you don’t have a balance of calcium, what can happen is you’re pulling away calcium from your bones if you don’t have proper calcium and if you don’t have that K2 co factor.

So then you’re basically just giving yourself osteoporosis. So make sure if you’re taking a vitamin D, you’re taking one with K2, you have proper calcium levels. 

Mike: Yeah, there’s vitamin D, K1, K2, and calcium in my multivitamin, in Legion’s multivitamin. That’s one of the reasons why it’s there, the K1, K2 in particular, but also we now know that K1, K2 is more important than we once thought.

It’s not just for blood clotting, but it seems to be developing in a similar way as vitamin D. Whereas at one point it was thought like, Oh, this is just a bone vitamin and that’s really it. And now we know it’s really a hormone and many cells, I’d say it’s probably the majority of cells in the body have vitamin D receptors, but that was at one point that was not known.

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com slash coaching now and schedule your free consultation call and let’s see if our program is a good fit for you. Back to just quickly give people some specifics on what does it mean to eat a variety of fruits and vegetables? Like, how do you make those decisions? What are you eating personally? I’m sure people are wondering and why?

Lacey: Yeah. So I like to say in regards to variety, focus on different colors because colors have different compounds. So we’re looking at things like. We’re looking at astaxanthins, we’re looking at antioxidants, we’re looking at polyphenols, we’re looking at all these different compounds and they are concentrated in different colors.

So if you can focus on getting different colorful fruits and vegetables, so things like reds and oranges and greens and blues, if you can focus on that, I didn’t even mention green, but if you can focus on all of these different colors, then you are really getting a whole lot. host of variety of micronutrients.

Now, in regards to my own diet, I do like to cycle things and I like to cycle them connected to seasons as well and what fruits and vegetables are in season. Because when something is in season, it actually has more of that micronutrient availability there versus when it’s not. because when it’s out of season, then it is not in its proper growth areas.

The soil’s not as good and it’s just, it has less of those compounds. So I like to focus on eating in season, whether it be strawberries during the summer or getting the produce when I know it is out of season. picked and riped. So if I can go local, I might go local because then it’s not sitting in the grocery store for a long period of time and losing the nutrient values.

But I like to get a whole host of variety. So I try and get myself, I would say Five cups of vegetables per day. I am a firm believer in trying to get a lots of cruciferous vegetables specifically for liver health and methylation, big fan of leafy greens. And I am all about getting your fruits. I used to be like, I admit, I do not a lot of fruits for some reason.

I’m just a weirdo, but I am adamant. You got to get in your fruits because fruits are powerful for antioxidants. for the fiber. And of course, we all know fiber is going to be the key for both digestive health and hormone health. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Those are good tips. Just for people listening or wondering.

So I personally, my daily fruit intake is banana before I go to the gym and an apple after, and usually something red or blue around dinnertime, maybe some raspberries or blueberries are a go to. that I like talking about specific molecules, the anthocyanins, the pigment in blueberries in particular.

I’ve tried to put it in a supplement, but it’s just anthocyanins are so expensive. I wanted to put a good dose in my greens supplement and I remember we were quoting it. It came back for the anthocyanins. Alone, it was going to be 30 a bottle, my cost. And that’s to get a good dose. Now, many supplement companies, of course, what I would do then, I would be like, Oh what’s a good dose?

300 milligrams. What about three milligrams? And then I would just pretend in my marketing Oh, it has the anthocyanins and these have answered. Oh 

Lacey: my God. So many companies do that. They’re like, Here’s a drop, a minuscule drop. Oh my God, there’s antioxidants in it. 

Mike: Yeah. This will cure cancer.

So we had to just cut it out, unfortunately, because to get even a halfway decent, that was like an optimal dose, but even a good dose, a dose that we could stand behind and that we could cite research and show, Hey, here’s benefits demonstrated at even 150 milligrams still is too expensive. But anyway, you can just get it through eating blueberries.

And so that’s fruit for me, as far as vegetables, I agree. I think it’s smart to start with a base of leafy greens. I do spinach and green lettuce of some kind. Sometimes it’s romaine, sometimes it’s just green lettuce or butter lettuce or whatever. And I have a salad at lunch. That’s like several handfuls of leafy greens.

And then at dinner, I do a vegetable medley. I also have, I consider a cruciferous vegetable. Also it’s like a, you should be eating it. I’ll rotate between. Brussels sprouts, broccoli, and cauliflower mostly. And then I also eat a fair amount of garlic and I make the stir fry basically. And I cut up garlic and let it sit.

Cause if you, a lot of people don’t know this, but if you cook garlic right away, it destroys there’s something called allicin in it for people. I know Lisa, you know this, but for people listening, it has a kind of a special molecule. It still provides sulfur. It’s still healthy even if this molecule gets degraded.

But if you just throw garlic into heat. It destroys the Allison content, but if you chop it up and let it sit for, I think there’s research on this 10 or 15 minutes, I believe it preserves the Allison content. And so that, and then mushrooms as well are like a standard go to for me, Some sort of colorful pepper, like it could be a green or red or yellow and carrots, onion.

Yeah, those are the highlights. And I basically did. So 

Lacey: you’re making me dinner tonight? Is that what’s happening? 

Mike: You could call it a stir fry of sorts. It’s not a conventional stir fry in that it literally is just all the random things that I want to be eating. 

Lacey: Those are the best meals. 

Mike: It’s actually quite good.

I’ve made it so many times. I’m going to say I’ve perfected it. And I put some sesame oil in it. And some these days it’s hoisin sauce and soy sauce and Worcestershire sauce. And it’s quite good, but it’s also just an easy way to get in a bunch of vegetables. Another tip for people who hear that and are like, yeah, no, that’s just not for me.

Suits. Soups are a great way to eat vegetables. 

Lacey: And casseroles. 

Mike: Yeah, casseroles. The calories can get intense, but if you have good recipes. 

Lacey: Spaghetti squash, zucchini casseroles. Yeah, 

Mike: I love squash. 

Lacey: Easy way to jam pack those fruits and vegetables in. I’m a huge fan of salads. Salads and omelettes, because I feel like you can make them.

them any which way that you want. You can throw in a salad and choose a different green. Like literally there’s five or six different greens you can go through and the toppings are endless. And if you have not tried. 

Mike: And then it’s the dressing, right? It’s all about the dressing. If you have the right dressing.

My salad is so basic because I just don’t care. It’s more like one level above. There was a guy named Tom who I had on my podcast. He’s a popular. Twitch streamer who has a cool story of how he found me and my work and how it helped him. And now he’s a popular Twitch streamer streaming about fitness.

And, but so he doesn’t really care to make a salad and eat it. So what he does is he just eats several handfuls of he wants to get into his leafy greens. So I forget he has a funny term for it. I forgot how he termed it, but he just grabs handfuls and just eats them. Smashes them into his face and chews them up and swallows it and moves on.

I respect that, but I actually like salad dressings. So I take it one step further and I put it in a Tupperware and I put some dressing on it. And so I’ll just rotate through dressings and that’s enough variety for me. So like, all right, these days I’m eating this Spanish Asian sesame dressing. And it’s delicious.

And then sometimes I’ll use there’s like a ginger sesame and sometimes I like vinegars. So any sort of vinaigrette. And so if you have a good dressing, and then if you add, if you want to take it a step further, like you’re talking about and actually put a little bit more effort in and make the salad more palatable, then, You have really endless variety.

Lacey: You do. Oh, I love dressings. I’m currently obsessed with the Trader Joe’s avocado cilantro. You’ve got that avocado, you’ve got cilantro, and you are just in a world of deliciousness right there. I would say people with dressings be very careful in what their ingredients are, because a lot of them are made with.

Vegetable oils. So that’s fine in moderation, but as we know, we get way too many vegetable oils and increasing chronic inflammation. So try and find an omega three base and olive oil base and avocado oil based dressing, if you can. That’ll really help get your omega threes and monounsaturated fats versus the vegetable oils we get every single day of our lives, pretty much.

Mike: Yeah. I could see that. I think though, it’s probably, if you’re the average person. Person, you’re not using that much salad dressing. So you should really be, most everyone should be supplementing with Omega threes unless they’re eating fatty fish several times a week. They’re almost certainly not getting enough EPA and DHA, right?

Lacey: No way. 

Mike: I would say if you’re supplementing with. EPA and DHA, and you’re making sure that you’re getting enough, at least a gram combined every day for basic health. And you can go up as high as six or seven grams a day for all of the potential benefits, especially some of the anti inflammatory benefits.

If that’s the case, and your diet is generally In line with what we’re talking about, I wouldn’t be concerned about, Oh, is this I didn’t even look. And with the dressings I use, is it two or three tablespoons per day? Whatever. 

Lacey: Oh yeah. But your diet looks great. 

Mike: I just wanted to point that out that again, if you have your diet set up well, you don’t have to micromanage every last little thing.

You just have to get the most important things mostly right. Most of the time. And that’s the same thing with training or probably most things in life, really. 

Lacey: Yeah, I would agree to that. 

Mike: So with organic, going back to this, what are your thoughts on choosing, because there’s, what is it? You have the dirty, I believe it’s the dirty dozen.

Dirty dozen. The clean 15, right? So the idea is that if you don’t want to go all in on buying all of your food organic, because it’s quite expensive, you can minimize your exposure to potentially harmful. Chemicals by avoiding certain conventional foods and choosing organic instead. 

Lacey: Yeah. So I like to say overall, I would rather just wash my produce because you’re going to get 99 percent off of it anyway.

But if you want to focus on the dirty dozen, that’s just fine. I have not looked into it 100 percent because I’m like, I don’t want to be anti against them, but there is some information to where the environmental working group is. The EWG is like skewing all this information to make money for themselves.

So I’m just like, okay, maybe there’s that, but either way, I would just rather just go organic if I can, for the most part. And then if there’s something that I maybe don’t want to spend money on, then I’ll go conventional. 

Mike: Yeah. And just for people listening, wondering, so the traditional advice, if you choose organic over conventional.

Conventional for some foods like apples and strawberries, grapes, celery, peaches, spinach. These are some of the things that are on the quote unquote dirtier, the dirty list. Then you can reduce your exposure to some of these chemicals. And I guess people, you can just Google, dirty dozen foods and it’ll come up.

And I believe that they actually, the dirty list changes over time because it just depends on what’s going on, in the world of agriculture. And then on the other. side of that coin is you have foods you can quote unquote safely buy conventionally because they just tend to have low amounts of pesticide residues.

And some of those are avocados, sweet corn, pineapple, cabbage. But again, like you said, you can just wash your food, maybe consider going organic for some of the things that you eat the most of or following Some advice like the dirty dozen slash clean 15 and just choosing and looking at the prices and saying, this makes sense.

I’ll get this organic, this I’m just going to get conventional. 

Lacey: And I think it’s also important to note that there are going to be different tastes and textures, whether it be organic or conventional. And sometimes for me, I know zucchini tends to be God awful with its taste when it’s organic. So I buy conventional because it tastes so much better.

So taste and texture matters too. 

Mike: Yeah. I think of grass fed meat. I don’t like the taste of grass. It’s not the same, obviously. I just think grass fed. I always, I’m like no. Give me the convention. I don’t like the taste of grass, but it tastes gamier to me. 

Lacey: Yeah, that’s really important.

And I know there’s some quote unquote, like antibiotic free, no hormone free. We could even dive in more to that, but different meats and some of them have this weird texture for some reason when they’re either conventional or organic. And it’s just, sometimes it’s just I just want something that’s going to taste good.

Mike: Especially when we were talking about foods that are inherently nutritious. The whole discussion is we’re talking about Optimization here. This is not a fundamental principle of healthy living. A fundamental principle of healthy living is eating enough fruits and vegetables, whether they are conventional or organic, right?

We’re talking about, okay, if you have the budget and if you have the inclination and you want to go a bit further than that, then it’s worth considering organic versus conventional. 

Lacey: Yeah, and if you’re scared of GMOs, but there’s a lot of studies showing that GMOs do not have an impact on humans.

Mike: Yeah, that’s something that I’ve intentionally avoided myself because I haven’t wanted to put the amount of time that it would take to do the due diligence to, Speak on it, at least authoritatively in my opinion. So I’ve avoided it and people have, I’ve been asked about it many times, but I should make a note.

I’m going to idea that I could find someone who’s really gone through the literature extensively. And cause from what I understand, it is. Actually, Curtis, who’s he heads up, he’s the co founder and former lead researcher right over at examine. com. Some of that could be a good discussion, probably a project.

He, I don’t know if he prepped for it now, but anyway, my understanding is that yes, that’s true, but That shouldn’t be applied to all GMO foods for all people under all circumstances. My understanding, again, it’s a limited understanding based on limited research. So that it may change when I do finally either go into it myself or get somebody to go into really the details of it, but is that, Really, we should be looking at different types of foods, how those types of foods can affect different people differently.

And that’s why it can get very complex where there are some foods that GMO really should be no issue for anybody ever really considering what they’re doing. Whereas with other foods, depending on what they’re doing and it’s really just comes down to genetics, there actually could be causes for concern.

And it’s similar from my understanding of vaccination, very controversial that of course, nobody halfway intelligent argues that vaccination is inherently bad. Of course it works, but as far as I understand certain people in this. Comes down again, mainly to genetic factors, respond differently to vaccines and things that are in the vaccines, the adjuvants, and in some people it’s totally fine.

Other people, however, even if they’re a minority of people, have a, an increased risk of complications. Anyway, so that’s as far as I’ve gone really on GMO. I don’t worry about it personally, but I do tend to eat organic food. And so anybody listening, if I were you, I not be worrying about it, especially if we’re talking about GMO fruits and vegetables.

I personally wouldn’t be concerned about that. But if we’re talking about the sad, the standard, as a standard American diet, and how poor that is. So there are already so many problems. They’re adding a bunch of GMOs on top of the highly processed kind of frankenfoods they’re eating that may be making the situation worse.

Lacey: Yeah, I had definitely had my own opinions on GMOs and 

Mike: But what are they? Those are my tentative thoughts based on limited research. 

Lacey: There are only 12 different GMO crops. And the problem with people labeling GMOs as bad is, one, they don’t understand why GMOs are created. They’re created to help with reducing food insecurity, increasing shelf life, and then increasing the micronutrients.

In specific foods like golden rice. That’s something that has increased the vitamin a for specific populations and has saved thousands of lives over in third world countries. So GMOs have their purpose. I’m with you with, we do not know the long term data on how GMOs could impact our health. So I’m not going to say yes or no to that is going to be good for you or bad for you, but we do know that GMO, that genetic change is not going to impact Your genetics because obviously you’re not a plant and also keep in mind, there’s cross breeding.

There is different hybrids created without even being genetically modified. So DNA mutations happen naturally 

Mike: and then of course, that’s what farmers been doing for a long time, right? Selectively breeding plants to increase resilience or increase yield or whatever. 

Lacey: So that’s just something to keep in mind.

I do think a worry for GMOs could be potentially the selection of different pesticides and herbicides and resistance to those. 

Mike: I seem to remember other foods that are being created, plants that are being created that have pesticides or herbicides in them, like inherently. 

Lacey: Not in them. No. 

Mike: True. Okay. I seem to remember something about that, but I might just be remembering wrong.

Lacey: They have snips, like they have gene mutations to where they become resistant to certain things. 

Mike: Yeah, no, I, again, I was just I thought I’d seen maybe a headline on this or something, but again, it’s an area I have not looked much into simply because again, I’m like, this is going to be a lot of work for me to get to a point where I feel like I could talk about it.

I’ve just purposely avoided it simply because. 

Lacey: We have a lot of people that will punch your words and twist them. 

Mike: Yeah. And I just have so many things to do these days. If it would feel like, although it might be fun, I don’t know how productive it would be, but I’m going to make a note that it may be worth finding someone.

We, something we could talk about. I’d be curious. It’s just the only reason why I say that is if I’m going to have that discussion. I just wanted to be very in depth. 

Lacey: Yeah. And just for your listeners, just to have that knowledge for yourselves, that non GMO label that you see with the little butterfly and everything that is actually like not regulated at all.

So they can put a sticker that says non GMO and it’s not actually saying, Hey, this is non GMO cause it’s not regulated. 

Mike: Oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t know that. So whereas organic is right. Like you can’t just claim it. You can do whatever you want, but if you get caught, you’re going to get in trouble.

Lacey: Organic actually means 95 percent of it is organic. So 5 percent could not be organic. If it says a hundred percent organic. 

Mike: But it is regulated is my point. 

Lacey: Yes. Yes. Heavily regulated. 

Mike: All natural is just a marketing term. It can mean something in the case of like, when I say that, Oh, my pre workout is all natural.

Actually what I mean is there are no chemicals in it. Everything actually is natural, but that’s just because I’m a good guy. Like I could say that and I could have as many chemicals as I want. And I technically wouldn’t get in trouble. 

Lacey: Yeah. All natural is only regulated in poultry and egg products.

Poultry, egg, meat products. 

Mike: And what does it mean then? How, what would be, what are any of those not all natural? 

Lacey: If it’s labeled all natural, then it would be no synthetic pesticides, herbicides, no synthetic antibiotics or vaccines, things like that. Yeah. 

Mike: Cool. I think one of the things worth talking about is just some tips to get organic food cheaper.

So you’d mentioned just cause it is quite a bit more expensive. And I know that is an obstacle for many people. So you mentioned eating with the season, that’s obviously a good way because when something’s out of season, it’s always way more expensive and another one I’ll just throw out and then maybe you can share any other tips and tricks that you like to use.

But another one I like to use is buying in bulk. That’s a simple way to do it as opposed to buying. Pre packaged pretty stuff that you pay a premium for and buying frozen whenever possible. It’s a lot of people. They don’t realize that. Yeah. They know that frozen foods and frozen organic foods are generally cheaper, but research shows that they are usually either equal to.

Or even better than fresh foods in terms of nutrition because of how they’re frozen because they’re flash frozen and it preserves in some cases more nutrients than the fruit or vegetable gets harvested. And then it’s going to, it takes quite a bit of time sometimes before it makes its way into your mouth, obviously the most nutritious.

way to eat would be to go out in your organic garden in your backyard and pick the strawberry and eat it. But that’s not feasible for most of us. 

Lacey: I know. I wish I had time for that, but definitely I am a huge fan of buying frozen because cheap and I am frugal. 

Mike: And it’s just convenient. I do it as well.

Like some of my stuff is fresh, but the cruciferous vegetable, whatever meeting that’s always frozen. Just because it saves a bit of time and I can load up on it. Also these days, I’m not using fruit in a smoothie or anything. I used to do that though, after I work out now, I just eat an apple with, I have a couple of scoops of protein, but I would use frozen fruit for that.

So yeah, frozen is great. And I would choose that also. I would say choose frozen. Over prepackaged and over canned. 

Lacey: Yeah, I would say definitely now cans these days tend to be a lot better. They’re not made with that BPA. They’re not made with all those linings, but I definitely would say, look at your canning labels for sure.

Cause that will further increase. 

Mike: I would also be suspicious of that though. And the reason being is I remember this was some time ago. So things might’ve changed. It was several years ago. I had written an article. On BPA and similar chemicals. And just because something is BPA free, 

Lacey: some of 

Mike: them have similar chemicals that are actually worse in the body.

It’s just not BPA. So that marketing trickery. 

Lacey: Yeah it’s what is not going to try and kill us these days? But ways to eat in season, there’s certain foods that you can buy and get in season that, of course, like I said, they’re going to. Potentially have higher amounts of those antioxidants polyphenols and they’re gonna be cheaper.

So spring you’re looking at like apples avocados radishes spinach strawberries Summer we have the garlic that you love garlic watermelon zucchini tomatoes blueberries and blackberries Fall, we’re looking at things like green beans, spinach, apples, pears, mushrooms. I know you mentioned mushrooms. And then winter we are looking at things like winter squash, Swiss chard, pumpkin that everybody is obsessed with, onions and carrots.

So those are just some varieties, but you guys can just look it up. The USDA will list the end season produce. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And store brands is also another good tip. Most supermarkets and even boutique stores have their own generic lines of organic foods, which includes produce and other things. Pasta, grains, condoms.

Lacey: You’re going to have to play around with different stores and their own. Flash frozen or whatever, because the texture and the taste does differ between different brands. So be careful because I know pick sweet. Oh my God. Awful frozen vegetables. Awful. But then Kroger is incredible. 

Mike: I actually have run into that.

Yeah, that’s true. I’ve run into it with different vegetables where I like the store brand of one, 

Lacey: but then 

Mike: the store brand, like Brussels sprouts, I’ve run into that where I’ve run into frozen Brussels sprouts that are just gross. I’m actually like, I am having a hard time eating this. Whereas I actually like Brussels sprouts, especially fresh and roasted.

And so that’s a good point. Or sometimes you got to try. Do 

Lacey: you like the bigger ones or the smaller ones? 

Mike: I like the bigger ones. 

Lacey: Me too. 

Mike: The crunchier, 

Lacey: yes. Yes. They’re so good. I love Brussels sprouts. 

Mike: The reason why I moved away from them was because I couldn’t find a frozen one that I liked and I was just time savings mostly, or it’s easy to rip open a bag of frozen broccoli and just dump it in.

But that’s me being. Lazy, because what is it really? It’s an extra three minutes of chopping. 

Lacey: That three minutes, man, you could do a lot in three minutes. 

Mike: Yeah, exactly. Three minutes, five to seven days a week. 

Lacey: Adding it all up. 

Mike: Yeah. By the time I die, I’ve wasted four months chopping Brussels sprouts.

Lacey: Oh, that sounds like me. I’m all about my time being my money. 

Mike: Yeah. Those are all the main points I thought we should cover and all the questions I had for you regarding organic food. Is there anything that you had on your end that we haven’t touched on yet? 

Lacey: Yeah, I did just want to mention a little thing about organic dairy because I know a lot of people tend to freak out these days about if something’s organic or not, RBST free or not.

So I definitely wanted to clear the confusion on RBST. So RBST, basically BST is naturally produced. Pituitary hormone found in cows. RBSD is the synthetic version produced by Monsanto of that pituitary hormone. RBSD is actually, it’s not biologically active in humans when eaten. So if you’re seeing that RBSD free, that’s a marketing term.

We can’t actually use that RBSD and BST is found naturally in these. Dairy cows. I do think there is a case for concern in regards to conventional dairy and potentially increases in different antibiotics and hormones. So we’re looking at how that can potentially change, your estrogen levels, progesterone levels and increased risk of diabetes.

of acne for certain people, but that RBSD is definitely a marketing claim. 

Mike: Yeah, that’s a good point. 

Lacey: And people tend to freak out, sorry. People tend to freak out about antibiotics in milks too. And any milk that is found, they test it before it goes to the stores and processed. They’re tested for antibiotics.

So if something is caught with antibiotics, it is discarded. So you don’t have to worry about antibiotics in your milks. 

Mike: Yep. I actually did see a report recently from the FDA. They tested a bunch of milk and some of it did contain antibiotics, but that’s simply because the dairy farmers weren’t following the rules.

What they’re supposed to do is when a cow gets sick and goes into antibiotics, they’re supposed to take the cow out of the milk cycle. And then they’re supposed to make sure the cow is better and that there’s no. Residues of antibiotics in their milk before they go back in, but not all dairy farms do that apparently.

So it’s not something to worry about per se, but you might get unlucky. I don’t know what’s, yeah, I don’t really have a good tip on in terms of Oh, was this, if you just avoid the lowest quality, most generic dairy out there maybe that’s a decent tip. But, and it was a small percent. I remember it was about 1 percent of the milk tested, but that probably mostly comes down to just luck.

If you happen to be getting batches with antibiotics with small amounts, I guess you’re just getting unlucky and it’s probably not something to worry about per se. And it’s possible that having organic dairy may reduce that likelihood to next to nothing, but don’t know. 

Lacey: I personally do organic dairy if I can, but in the end, it’s It’s up to the dairy farmers to do their job and to follow the guidelines.

And it’s just like supplement manufacturers. They’re required to have those good manufacturing practices. And do some of them follow it to a T? Yes. Do some of them not? Yes. 

Mike: Do many not? 

Lacey: Yes. True. Very true. So in the end, it’s like, are they doing what they’re supposed to do? Because if they’re doing what they’re supposed to do, then no, it should not have any antibiotics.

And for supplements, no, it should not have any heavy metals or shouldn’t be inaccurate with their labeling. 

Mike: Or have methamphetamine like chemicals or Prozac or drugs that cause liver failure or. 

Lacey: It is, it’s such an issue. Oh, the number of Renal failure and all that stuff and things that can happen in regards to taking bad ingredients or too much of an ingredient.

It blows my mind that the FDA is, yes, they’ve been cracking down a little bit more, but they still have not cracked down like hardcore. They need to. 

Mike: Yeah. Hopefully it comes. I know that the FTC is going after poop tea companies as I call them, which is, I think a good thing generally, these companies that have marketed quote unquote detox teas to global, usually young women for primarily for weight loss and used mostly celebrities to post about it on Instagram.

And so I see that as a positive sign. And I wish the FTC would. Come and assault the sports nutrition space because there’s just so many egregious violations of just outright lying. You take some of the stuff that like spiking products with harmful chemicals is one thing. Spiking protein is another thing.

There are a number of scams that you can run on the manufacturing side of things. Then there’s the marketing side of things, which is it is hard to find supplement companies that market their products honestly, and that don’t over promise benefits don’t oversell them. Also don’t sell products that are just worthless.

Like how many supplement companies in the sports nutrition space that make any actual money don’t sell a BCAA for example, or don’t sell some sort of quote unquote hormone booster. Those are two good examples because BCAs are worthless, absolutely worthless. Maybe you could argue someone who is like exercising six hours a day or something might be able to benefit from them.

Maybe, probably not. They could probably just eat protein instead, but for the average everyday person to tell them, Oh, this product, It’s going to help you gain muscle or strength faster, help you recover from your workouts faster, or even support, even get a little bit trickier in your wording supports muscle gain or strength gain or post workout recovery.

Lacey: God, you’re giving them ideas. 

Mike: They’re five steps ahead of me. They already, that’s outright lying. Same thing with any sort of testosterone booster growth, hormone booster. There is nothing. I wish there was something natural that actually worked and I’d be happy to sell it. I wish there were a good use for BCAs.

I’d be happy to sell them. If there were, I get people asking, ironically, I get people who email regularly, 

Lacey: that’s 

Mike: why I get people. They’ll reach out to me and I’ll get people saying, I know, so I’ve written about BCAs, I’ve spoken about them. And so I have people reach out and say, Hey, I know I actually agree with you that they’re worthless.

But they helped me drink enough water to help me. I just like water taste. So will you please make a BCAA? I’ll buy it from you. Even though I know the only reason to use it is to make my water taste good. And I’m like, ah, 

Lacey: you should make an electrolyte solution. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. There’s another, yeah. Another good, although, there’s probably something you could do.

We would probably be more geared toward endurance athletes, like an intro workout with probably some carbs, a little bit of protein, maybe some electrolytes or something you probably could do there that would have at least some validity. But that’s another good example, intro workouts for just everyday, normal people who are in the gym, whatever, a few hours per week, we’ve tried to come up with a formulation that would make any sense.

And we just can’t. The only thing we could come up with was something that would be for endurance athletes on like long, two plus hour endurance workouts. And I don’t know that space and I didn’t feel comfortable investing a lot of resources into that without knowing really who those people are and what they’re looking for.

And so we just haven’t done it. But anyways, I’m just rambling about the things I hate about the supplement industry, but for people out there, consumers, remember you can vote with your dollars. And I feel strongly enough about this kind of stuff that I would say if a supplement company sells a BCAA, they’re going to say nothing at all.

They’re gonna be like, we have this buy it, or they’re going to try to suggest or even promise some benefits. Either they’re liars. Or they don’t know what they’re doing. So why support them, especially when you have many other options and the same thing would an intro workout that’s supposed to support muscle gain and strength gain, or a testosterone or a hormone booster, find another company.

It doesn’t have to be mine, but just find another company that at least doesn’t sell those products. And that doesn’t mean that they won’t in the future, or they even understand what I’m talking about. But that is why I don’t sell those products. And I never will, unless. I don’t think anything’s changed with PCAs because there’s actually a lot of research out there on them.

Who knows? There could be something on the testosterone front at some point, some strange eastern herb that’s just under researched. It’s possible, but there’s just nothing so far. 

Lacey: I think these testosterone supplements have maybe a case for helping increase the libido, but. 

Mike: Yeah, actually, there are a few, I think Maka actually has some, had some research for that.

Lacey: Yes. 

Mike: But of course, that’s, that’s the lowest, that’s hard to even, that’s not enough to sell a product. No, you need to be able to 

Lacey: say, Hey, this is going to increase your money. 

Mike: Yeah. If it’s going to be sex drive, no, it needs to be a dick pill. Then it has got to go further than that. And It, if it’s going to be testosterone, then it’s got to be everything else that comes with that.

It’s got to be like, this is basically natural steroids. 

Lacey: Oh, it just, it blows me away how many different products were caught with steroids just in this last year. 

Mike: Oh yeah. I actually didn’t hear about this at all. 

Lacey: Really? You didn’t see everything about Blackstone Labs? 

Mike: Oh Blackstone, okay. Yeah. They got rated by, was it the F?

No it was the DEA. Or was it the FBI? They got raided, right? 

Lacey: For something, yes. 

Mike: But I think that was for actually selling steroids. I don’t even think it was. Don’t they have quote unquote research chemicals and they’re already in the gray anyway? 

Lacey: I know some of at least one of their products was caught with an anabolic steroid.

Mike: Ah, okay. That’s not surprising. 

Lacey: But they’re still selling. I don’t know how. 

Mike: It takes time for, the wheels of justice to turn. Let’s see. So I guess it was an FDA raid. I don’t know. People can Google. I remember hearing about it. It was something related to steroids, but of course, that’s not surprising.

Just look at the dude who owns the company, and if you’re buying your supplements from him, good luck. You’re taking your health into your own hands. 

Lacey: The important reason to go to somebody that you trust. Third party tested. 

Mike: That’s actually something we, we do it, but we’re going to be doing it and we’re going to be posting everything.

We’re lining it up with a lab door and they have a good. 

Lacey: Oh, really? Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. Because they see the problem is previously we would get everything tested with it wasn’t Covance. We’ve used Covance before. Oh, wow. I’m actually blanking out to pull up on our Google drive, the reports, but we would go between one or two or three big globally recognized labs.

And it was. Mostly just for my peace of mind, just knowing, I work with very reputable manufacturers who I pay a premium to be with, but they really do dot every I and cross every T. And I know, for example, I won’t say who, but, Like one very large supplement company wanted to run a bunch of protein with one of my manufacturers, but wanted to amino spike, wanted to believe it was glycine they wanted to use to artificially raise the protein per serving in my manufacturer, turned them away and just said, no.

And they turned away a lot of money. It was a, it’s a big company. They said, go find someone else. We don’t do that shit here for my own peace of mind. Really. I wasn’t surprised that these tests would always come back exactly the way they should, but it was very expensive. It was like 50, 000 or so around, cause I have quite a few products and that’s fine, but I can’t do that, ideally I’d be testing, I wanted to.

My original idea was like, Hey, if I could do this, several times per year and post it up on the website, that would be great. And I looked at the costs, I was like, geez, that’s pretty intense. So we would do it once a year, but with Labdoor, their service is actually very affordable. So we’re going to be.

doing a whole thing. Like we have a bunch of stuff now with them that’s going to be getting tested and we’re going to prominently display that. I guess I could have probably displayed the testing before. It’s just, you got lost in the shuffle of things. But I think particularly these days, transparency is more and more important.

So once this first full round of testing is done with lab door, we’re going to figure out how exactly we want to integrate that into the website and make it clear that we do this. It’s a regular thing. Here are the results. And Labdor is a trusted partner in this. It’s something that I think that any oil supplement companies should be doing.

And as a consumer, I think that anybody listening to something that you should demand and you should. At this point, I don’t know very many companies, I don’t know of any big ones that actually do it, but hopefully it becomes a thing because it should be a thing. 

Lacey: I would love to see more people use Labdor.

I’m a huge fan of Labdor, consumer labs, any third party testing. So I’m all about that. So thank you for doing that. 

Mike: I’m excited about it because again, it’s not just a good marketing move for me and my company, but I hope that it, Catches on with consumers and I want to make a big deal out of it more from that perspective is look, yes, it’s good and it verifies that I am selling what they’re my products contain what I say they contain and they do not contain all these other things that you don’t want.

But even if you don’t buy anything from me, you should demand this. You should insist on this. And here’s why and see where it goes. 

Lacey: Awesome. This has been so fabulous and I’m so honored. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I hope I was able to give your listeners some tips and tricks and things to look out for in regards to marketing.

Mike: Yeah, no, I really appreciate you taking the time and we should probably just wrap up with where can people find you and find your work, anything in particular that you want to send them to or make them aware of anything new and exciting. 

Lacey: Yeah. So if you guys want to find me. My Instagram is at faith and fit.

You can also follow me on Twitter at Lacey A. Dunn. I am pretty active on Twitter and like to get into controversial subjects. I like to ruffle feathers. 

Mike: Are you politically incorrect? 

Lacey: I am never correct in anything I do politically. I am just, 

Mike: so you’re a Nazi basically. Okay. These days that means that you are many isms and many pejoratives.

Lacey: I am. Everything I post about everything and I need to sometimes Taylor keep myself away from doing things up and saying things. I probably shouldn’t but Anyhoo, I do have an exciting new course coming out on thyroid and gut health If anybody deals with different thyroid disorders or gut disorders, I’m very excited about this It has been a lot of work in the making.

So if anybody has any questions I do also have lots of information on my Instagram whether it be about Gut health, thyroid health, metabolism, food, labeling, nutrition advice, all the above, but definitely people you can follow Mike for some good, valuable information. I definitely do want to shout out to Revive Stronger by Science, and then Sigma Nutrition as well for.

Three different other podcasts that people need to listen and my own uplift fit nutrition. 

Mike: Awesome. Thanks again, Lacey. I appreciate you taking the time. This was a great discussion. 

Lacey: Thank you so much. 

Mike: Hey, Mike here. And if you like what I’m doing on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please do consider picking up one of my bestselling health and fitness books, including bigger, leaner, stronger for men.

Thinner, leaner, stronger for women. My flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef, and my 100 percent practical and hands on blueprint for personal transformation inside and outside of the gym, The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped me.

Thousands of people build their best bodies ever, and you can find them on all major online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play, as well as in select Barnes Noble stores. Again, that’s Bigger Leaner Stronger for Men, Thinner Leaner Stronger for Women, The Shredded Chef, and The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation.

Oh, and I should also mention that you can get any of the audiobooks 100 percent free when you sign up for an Audible account, which is the perfect way to make those pockets of downtime, like commuting. Meal prepping and cleaning more interesting, entertaining and productive. So if you want to take audible up on that offer, and if you want to get one of my audio books for free, go to www.

legionathletics. com slash audible. That’s L E G I O N athletics slash a U D I B L E and sign up for your account.