Ep. #316: Marc Perry on How to Stay Super Lean Year Round (Without Hating Your Life)

Mike: [00:00:31] Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Muscle For Life podcast. I am Mr. Mike Matthews, your host and the creator of muscleforlife.com and Legion Athletics. And this episode is going to be about staying super lean year-round. And like many of the episodes on this podcast, I got the idea for it from questions that people email me and D.M. me and so forth, asking just this:

What does it really take to, not just get really lean, but stay really lean? Because once you understand the mechanics of proper dieting – you know, energy balance, macronutrient balance, and so forth – getting lean really isn’t all that difficult. It’s never easy in the way that gaining weight is easy. But most of us can plot our way through a couple months of cutting to get some abs for the summer.

The real challenge, though, is staying lean, and staying lean for the long haul. That’s what separates the fitness champions from the rest of the contenders. And that’s why I invited my friend Marc Perry on the podcast. Marc is the founder of builtlean.com and when it comes to staying absolutely shredded month after month, year after year, Marc walks the walk. And he has managed to do it without losing his mind, which makes it even more impressive.

Mike: [00:02:00] So in this show, you’re going to learn about the habits, systems, and skills that Marc has developed to stay ripped. So here’s a little sneak peek of what you are going to learn in today’s interview. You’re going to learn the things that you do and don’t have to sacrifice to stay really lean.

What kind of exercise schedule it takes. How much you can get away with cheating before it becomes a problem. What you can expect to eat in terms of calories and macros. The best ways to keep hunger under control throughout the day. How to manage eating out at restaurants and more.

Mike : [00:04:34] Hey, Marc, thanks for coming on the show, I’m excited to do this. We tried a previous time for the listeners and then we got mixed up on times, but here we are.

Marc: [00:04:42] Thanks so much for having me, man. I appreciate it.

Mike : [00:04:45] Yeah, absolutely. So I’m excited to talk to you because this is something that I’ve actually had on my list of, like, things to write about, or talk about, or both. And I think you are a perfect guy to talk to about this, not only because you are generally a smart dude and know what you’re talking about, but this is something you have a lot of experience with.

And that is: what it really takes to stay lean for long periods of time. And not mechanically speaking, because most of my listeners know about energy balance and macronutrient balance. Yes, they know that, of course, maintaining your weight comes down to just maintaining your energy balance and making sure that you’re not, you know, eating more calories and you’re burning over time, blah, blah, blah.

I mean, more from the psychological perspective and the lifestyle perspective of how, essentially, what it comes down to is: the leaner you want to be, the more OCD you have to be about your diet and exercise, about your energy balance, ultimately, and that, of course, impacts your social life, it impacts how you feel, and then there’s the physical side of it, too.

And I’m very curious to hear your experiences, because I’ve done it a few times where I’ve gotten very lean for photo shoots and then just like been, “eh, what does it take to maintain this?” And the last time I did that, I was weight lifting four to six hours a week and I was doing about an hour or so of HIIT cardio on a bike, on an upright, or recumbent bike per week.

And so I was burning a fair amount of calories and even then, what I found is that I had to – I was eating about 2,500, or 2,600, most 2,700 calories a day, and I basically – I wouldn’t say I felt bad, but I felt off. Like I didn’t have as much energy as usual, my workouts weren’t as good as usual, I felt like my body just wanted more food.

And, you know, I’ve done it now a couple times and I’ve experienced that. So that’s what I want to talk to you about because – and for people listening, Marc stays very lean for long periods of time. And it’s not because he has like a magical unicorn metabolism, I’m sure you have a good metabolism and you exercise and so forth, but it mostly comes down to you are willing to pay the price of what it takes, right?

Marc: [00:07:05] Right. And so I probably had under 10 percent body fat for, I’m not exaggerating, probably 10 years. And as you’re saying, I mean, you’re hitting everything on the head. Ultimately, I think like, the theme is that I approach my life in a more structured way, like I approach my exercise in a very structured way and I know you do too.

I approach my eating in a very structured way. And like ultimately, it not only helps me stay lean, but it optimizes my energy levels. And that’s really what kind of motivates me. And so, you know, in terms of structure, I have a very specific structure in terms of like, “okay, what am I doing on what day each week in terms of exercise?”

You know, “what types of meals am I eating each day?” And obviously I can go into a lot more detail, but that’s like the basic theme, is creating structure, so that I don’t have to become anxious because otherwise, it would be very difficult to stay lean and have a life and, you know, enjoy yourself.

Mike : [00:08:04] So let’s get to the specifics, so like, where are you at right now? And have you been where you are now for a period of time or have you cut even leaner recently? And what do those specifics look like, in terms of calories, macros, the type of foods that you eat, the type of exercise that you do? And also how does that work in terms of a social life, you know, eating out, parties, and so forth?

Marc: [00:08:33] Absolutely. I mean, those are – that’s a lot of great questions. I think kind of starting with, I’m trying to think like where we start. I think essentially we have like three kinds of categories here. We’ve got exercise, nutrition, lifestyle. I think starting with exercise, I do kind of three full-body strength training kind of workouts a week.

And these workouts tend to, in general, I call them strength circuits, they tend to be, you know, only like 20, 30 minutes, but I do pretty intense training. So for example, I don’t know if you’ve heard of a workout called Simple and Sinister, a guy named Pavel Tsatsouline created it. But basically I’ll do 100 kettlebell swings in five minutes.

Basically ten on my right, ten on my left every minute. And then I’ll do a Turkish get-up, you know, five Turkish get-ups on my right, five Turkish get-ups on my left, that takes about another 10 minutes. The entire training session, the actual workout is 15 minutes, but I’ve essentially lifted, you know, I use a 70 count kettlebell, by the way, to do that workout.

So I’m basically lifting, you know, what is it? It’s like 7,000 pounds in five minutes, right? If I’m doing 100 kettlebell swings in 5 minutes. So anyways, I guess what I’m saying it’s like, my full-body training, like workouts, they tend to be pretty intense and that is kind of definitely has an impact on how my physique looks.

So I do that a few times a week. So Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, when I do my full-body strength training. On Tuesday, I do yoga, hot yoga, I know you’re a fan, too, because that really helps open up my body. On Thursday, I do like a cross-training type of thing where I’ll just go for a run.

I moved to Santa Monica recently, so I go on the beach. And then, on Saturday I’ll either do yoga or like, you know, some more cross-training. And then on Sunday, I’ll do a hike, but the idea is I try to stay as active as I possibly can. And so that’s kind of like an …

Mike : [00:10:30] And that’s a key point. And actually, just to emphasize is a lot of activity. That’s one of the key things. If you want to stay lean year-round, you are going to have to be very active just because you’re going to need the additional energy expenditure if you want to eat halfway – like an amount of food that isn’t just punitive.

Marc: [00:10:49] Totally. And one more kind of quick thing, and by the way, in terms of my kind of workout structure as you can, I think, sense from how I describe it, it’s pretty well balanced. You know, it’s like I’m not just doing one thing or the other thing. I try to make it more balanced.

I think as I’ve gotten older, I think that’s become more important. And then one more kind of quick thing to mention about the exercise: I also do, every morning, I do like a daily bulletproofing routine. I used to call it my morning mobility routine, but now I call it daily bulletproofing.

It kind of motivates me even more. And I also do a little bit – it’s like, a little bit of kind of core and glute work and then also some mobility. And the idea is it just makes me more resistant and I imagine it also helps a little bit with the kind of calorie expenditure. So that’s like an overview of my exercise. That sound good?

Mike : [00:11:31] Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s great. It’s just quick on the bulletproofing, I actually started doing the same thing. So I got into yoga, but I was doing it once, maybe twice a week and it was good, but I wasn’t happy with, like, my progress was slow just because I was doing, you know, once or twice a week.

And probably more often once a week than twice a week, which is, of course, better than nothing. But there were, like in my case, for example, something and I’ve had an imbalance that I’ve, you know, become more and more aware of as I’ve gotten more into heavier weight lifting, which I’ve backed off a little bit.

Few years ago I was like really trying to push, that’s the last time I really did a proper bulk and was really just trying to see like, how much can I squat, deadlift, and bench press, and OHP, overhead press. But I had, it’s getting better now, a lot less external rotation on my right side of my lower body and then vice versa, less internal rotation on my left side.

And I found that there were a few yoga poses in particular that really seemed to help with that. So I kind of, what I do now is, I have like eight to ten minutes a day, and I have, it’s in my head, let’s see, five or six, basically just yoga poses that I really like that I do now every day. And just six weeks of that has really helped tremendously.

I notice it not only in just like, “oh, I definitely have more external rotation. That feels looser, that feels better.” You know, “my pigeon pose is getting better.” But I also am noticing in my squats, they just feel better. I guess that’s the only way to describe it. Just more stable and more comfortable with heavier weights.

And also, strangely enough, I feel muscle activation on my right side in particular, in a different way, in my quad. Like, I’ve been getting sore in an area of my quad that I previously didn’t – I was not getting particularly sore in that area. So I don’t know if I’m just getting better activation on the whole, which would make sense.

Again, I’ve had tightness and fortunately no acute injuries, but other than, like, minor muscle strains and things that, you know, a joint gets pissed off or something for no good reason, and then you’re not squatting for a week or something. But anyways, just throwing out there that now I’m 33, I didn’t really think about this kind of thing when I was younger, because I never had any issues.

Like I just would go and crush heavy weights every day. And I mean, of course, I was more on like a – I’d have three heavy compound workouts per week and then two lighter isolation so I wasn’t going insane. But anyways, I just wanted to throw it out there that, for people listening.

I highly recommend and I’m going to be – one of my next books I’m going to be working on, it’s gonna be particularly for the 30 and 40 plus crowd, and I’m gonna be really emphasizing the importance of – sure you can call mobility. I mean, really whatever, it’s like stretching, mobility, it could be yoga poses, but it doesn’t take that much time. Again, just eight to ten minutes a day, seven days a week in like six or seven weeks has made a noticeable improvement, so.

Marc: [00:14:44] Yeah, and again, I can’t emphasize enough, like for the people listening, doing it, as you said, like a daily mobility routine. It’s huge. It’s actually the very first thing I do. Actually, I get up in the morning, I actually get up at 5:00 a.m. every day, partly, thanks to your book.

Mike : [00:15:01] Oh, that’s so? So it sticks? I like it. I actually want to hear about this. 

Marc: [00:15:05] Yeah, I used to get up at 6:00 am and now I get up at 5:00 am because I’m like, man, I just gotta take it up a notch. And then I take a cold shower immediately, I’ll tell you a little bit more about that. And then I literally do that, the morning mobility, slash kind of bulletproofing. It’s literally the most important exercise I do every day.

It’s okay if I don’t go to the gym, it’s okay if I don’t go to yoga. But like that morning mobility bulletproofing, it’s the most important thing I do, regarding my kind of movement and exercise. Because as you’re saying, you know, you’re working on those weaknesses, so just hugely important.

Mike : [00:15:34] Agreed. And for people that want to learn more about mobility, if you head over to muscleforlife.com, just search for “mobility”, you’ll find a few articles that I’ve written. So there’s one that’s like, you know, improving your mobility for squatting and it has some lower body stuff. And then there’s a longer one that just has a whole bunch of things that you can try.

And for me, I’ve been rather unscientific about it, you know, in a sense, I guess, in that I just chose the things that felt good. Like I know, I was aware of, “okay, these are the imbalances and which of the …” again, these come down to mostly yoga stretches. Which, you’ll find them in some mobility routines. But I’m not getting fancy with bands or anything.

It’s real simple, it’s just the things where I would do it and I’d be like, “yeah, I definitely have impaired mobility there. My left side, I can go this far. My right side I can not go this far. So I’m just going to do this one,” and that’s basically how I chose them was like, “yep, this one addresses it this way, this one addresses it that way, this one feels good, this one it seems to be addressing the issue.”

And, you know, I guess in a sense, like if you pick up Starrett’s mobility book, that’s what you have to do. It’s an encyclopedia, good luck trying to – I mean ultimately it’s just kind of like, well, now you got to just experiment with all these things and see what seems to work for you.

So, again, what you’re gonna have to – there’s gonna be some trial and error anyway – but anyways, if people wanna learn more, just check out the articles, and it’s simple and you don’t have put very much time into it to reap, not only the immediate benefits of just feeling good and being able to move better, but it will impact your workouts as well, positively.

Marc: [00:17:06] Cool. And one more thing I just want to mention before going into nutrition is, I also had lower back surgery when I was 21 years old. I was a lacrosse player at Yale and so I was a competitive athlete my whole life and that really affected me. Obviously I had a college strength training program, did all the, you know, the squats, the deadlifts, all that stuff, and I ended up turning a disc in my back, got surgery.

Like that dramatically affects – affected my whole life, obviously, ever since, and it really made me think differently about all this kind of mobility daily bulletproofing stuff. So I just want to mention that I know a lot of guys who are listening might have had bad low backs or even herniated disc in their back. And so, you know, this type of morning routine can help mitigate the risk of something like that happening, right?

Mike : [00:17:50] Absolutely. That’s something I pay more attention to now is like – I’m not as interested as I was five years ago in like, trying to max out on lifts and seeing just how strong I can get. I experienced it to a degree where I was like, “all right if I’m going to go further: one, I’m going to have to really program for squatting,” for example, which I don’t necessarily even want to do.

Even if for nothing else that like, my jeans already barely fit as it is. So if I go further then I guess I’m never wearing jeans again. And then I’m a true meatball bodybuilder. Or wearing those really ugly bodybuilder jeans, you know, like M.C. Hammer jeans? Or just permanently like sweatpants or shorts, right? [Laughing]

But then also I realize that like, obviously as you get into heavier and heavier weights, your risk of injury goes up just inherently, because even if you know what you’re doing, it doesn’t take – it takes one rep where you’re a little bit off and that can turn into an injury. And I don’t want to say that to scare anybody, but that’s just the reality.

It’s like Olympic lifting is more dangerous than powerlifting because you are throwing around, there’s a lot more stuff going on with heavyweight. So, I also became more cognizant of that and I was like,”Okay, now I’m pretty happy with where my body’s at, I enjoy working out, I also kind of just don’t want to get hurt,” so that’s also why I started putting more mobility stuff in.

Marc: [00:19:13] Awesome, man. I think, again, that’s super smart and I’m happy that we’re discussing it right now.

Marc: [00:20:53] So kind of moving on to nutrition in terms of kind of staying lean all year round.

Mike: [00:20:58] That was a worthwhile tangent, but we’ll go back on topic. [Laughter]

Marc: [00:21:00] Totally. No, no, absolutely. I think it’s hugely important. It’s hugely important. And so, kind of, with regards to nutrition, obviously, you know, there are many different philosophies, many different diets out there, there are so many diets, it makes your head spin, and so many, you know, “this works, that works, this doesn’t work.”

I mean, for me, I don’t really pay too much attention to that. I have, as I said, a pretty structured diet. So I’ll give you a pretty quick example and then you’ll probably realize why I’m able to stay lean all the time is that, you know, I have basically the same breakfast every morning, like seven days a week. Not seven days a week, but most days, it will be different maybe a couple times.

But I have basically a shake in the morning. It’s like fresh fruits, sometimes I’ll throw, you know, some vegetables in there, nut butter, you know, a grass-fed kind of whey protein, and that’s it. And it takes me like three minutes to make it. I use it with like, I use like a NutriBullet pro or NutriBullet RX, whatever it is.

It takes five seconds to make and I know I’m getting great nutrition. And I know that it’s just going to fill me up until basically lunchtime, so that’s nice, right? I’m sure that, you know, when you’ve worked with some of your clients and, you know, a lot of people like, sometimes like a lot of variety, but for me, I think the opposite makes it easier to kind of stick to things.

Mike: [00:22:24] Oh, absolutely. There’s another little key takeaway for people listening is: if you like food a lot, I honestly would not recommend trying to be super lean. You just can’t have it both ways unless you are incredibly active. I mean, where you’re gonna be spending hours a day either exercising or playing sports or something so you can eat so much that it just doesn’t matter.

Or, you know, you’re on drugs that allow you to eat so much that it doesn’t matter. So that’s the only way that people that want a lot of food variety and that are really into food can also be super lean. So keep that in mind when you’re, you know, browsing around on Instagram and seeing guys and gals that stay super lean and talk about all the food they get to eat.

And also realize a lot of people lie about that as well. They’ll lie about their calories, they’ll lie about their diet. Like it’s a thing, you know, especially with some girls, not even just fitness girls, but like models to pretend that you eat a lot of junk food. But you don’t, you know what I mean? Like you’re taking a bite of the hamburger in the picture and you spit it out, not joking.

And so anyways, I just wanted to call that out, because it’s an important point is that you’re going to have to stick to a very regimented diet and ultimately that means probably eating a lot of the same foods for long periods of time. Because you know what those foods are in terms of calories and in terms of macros and unless you have that database built into your brain, it’s annoying to try to change things. Because you can’t just change things on the fly unless you’re familiar with what you’re replacing, right?

Marc: [00:24:03] Absolutely. And by the way, I have a coaching client right now I’m working with on the nutrition side. I mean, like he’s this like, typical New Yorker and he has the craziest variety of food that he eats, it’s like insane. He has like a different fish every night, a different like, meat every – I’ve never seen anything like it, frankly and it’s been hard for him.

And we kind of tightened it up and limited the variety a little bit more and it helped him a lot. But, you know, it’s going to be a different challenge once he kind of gets off and wants more variety. But I think you’re giving great advice in that like: if someone likes a huge variety of food, it’s just a lot harder to stay leaner. I think it’s possible with like, more OCD, but it’s harder, for sure.

Mike: [00:24:41] It is going to take a fair amount of money and that you’re going to have like a personal chef that’s just going to make you – and you get to give your calories and macros to your chef and then he or she just gives you delicious meals every day. Or it’s going to take a lot of your time to micromanage your diet. And yes, you’re going to have to be pretty OCD about it.

Marc: [00:25:01] Right. And you can also get like a meal delivery service. But who wants to do that three to four meals a day?

Mike: [00:25:06] Like, sure you can pay for that or for that money you probably could find a local chef to just make you stuff fresh.

Marc: [00:25:15] You’re probably right. Right, you’re probably right. So yeah. Again, that’s a great point. And then, so if that’s breakfast is a shake. Lunch is usually like a salad. And I was so against salads and my meat had bodybuilding days. Like the thought of having a salad like, like actually got me angry. [Laughing]. 

Mike: [00:25:33] [Laughing] I’ve never heard that – wait, why? 

Marc: [00:25:33] No, I’m saying, I’m like, “what am I, like a rabbit? Like who eats a salad? It’s not going to fill me up.” You know, “I’m like a man. I’m an athlete.” Like, the whole idea of eating a salad was just like, “I would never do that.” So anyways, after several years, I ended up realizing that, you know what?

Salad is actually an amazing base and it helps me have more energy because basically I have a base of salad but I still had some, like healthy fats in there. It’s like a man-sized salad I eat every day. Like, I don’t need a little thing, you know.

I have like a good amount of protein in there, probably some good six to eight ounces. You know, I have some – usually a healthy fat, like a cheese. I have some, you know, some nuts in there. So it’s like a solid side salad. And that’s usually what I have for lunch.

Mike: [00:26:19] So like 500 or 600 calories?

Marc: [00:26:21] It could even be, it can definitely be higher than that. It could be 700 to 800. But it’s a sizable salad. And then I think snacking is a huge topic, of course. Snacking in general, when I see guys who snack a lot, it makes it very difficult to stay lean and get lean. And so when I want to get ripped, the only thing I have to do is not eat snacks.

Like I’m at the point where I’ve been doing this for so long, like if I just don’t eat snacks, I will get, like pretty shredded. So typically, I’ll have, you know, maybe one snack a day, but like my max is two. Because the second I go above two like, I know it’s going to affect my focus and energy levels and it’s not even about just, you know, staying, I guess, lean, but it’s just not great for me to have more than a couple snacks.

So that’s kind of the max I have. And they’re small snacks, you know, it’s like, you know, some almonds or something, a handful of almonds or you know, a piece of fruit, something like that, I keep it super simple. And so that’s really the snacks. And then the final is dinner. I often just cook dinner myself. It’s super simple. I have like frozen veggies.

I’ll have, like broccoli, I’ll have some, like kind of this mixed vegetables, and I’ll have at least two cups of them because – especially as you know, like you can have a lot of food if you eat vegetables, like especially fibrous vegetables. I mean, you can load up on fibrous vegetables and stay super full.

Mike: [00:27:41] Yeah on like 150 calories?

Marc: [00:27:44] Yeah. No, it’s a huge strategy I think, you know, if you really do want to get that kind of leaner physique year-round.

Mike: [00:27:49] That’s exactly what I do. When I’m cutting I eat – I mean, my standard vegetable and fruit intake is two to three servings. I do two servings of fruit and probably closer to three servings, actually, I’d say these days it’s probably closer to four servings of vegetables per day.

But yes, a great cutting tip is: include vegetables in your lunches and dinners. And especially you look for vegetables that are lower in calories. Some vegetables are not so great. Like peas, not so great. Broccoli, great. Spinach, great. Green beans, super great. So that’s a good tip for staying full without having to eat a bunch of calories.

Marc: [00:28:31] Absolutely. So like my dinner has the following template. It’s basically, like lean meat or relatively lean meat. It’s, you know, fibrous vegetables and carbs. Essentially fibrous vegetables and then like, I have like one starchy carb that has a good amount of fiber. And like that template, you can apply it to lunch, you can apply it to dinner, but that’s something that like, if I’m eating out, I have that same template.

Like I don’t eat something unless it has that template. If that makes sense. And so, you know, to finish off my dinner, I’ll have the fibrous vegetables, I’ll have, let’s just say some like, you know, brown rice or quinoa, and then I’ll have like grass-fed beef or like some chicken, and maybe I’ll have, you know, some spices or oils or tomato sauce, like something to make it taste good.

And then that is really it. And it satisfies me, it makes me happy. Like my brother is in New York and he is one of these guys, I mean, he loves eating out, he loves, you know, kind of these like greasy, oily food sometimes. And for me, it’s like I get a kick out of what I just described to you. Like I love what I eat because of how I feel. And it also tastes good to me.

So I just like yourself, like we’re hyper-aware of how our habits are affecting our life and our energy. Like most people aren’t, right? Most people are just kind of going through the motions. Whereas I think, you know, when you’re doing this for a living, you’re just hyper-aware of these little things and it affects the habits that you have.

And so anyways, that’s kind of the, you know, my nutrition. Just a couple more quick things to mention regarding nutrition is: I definitely focus on whole foods. The vast majority of what I eat is whole and unprocessed foods. You know, think like one ingredient, like an apple, of course. And then, the finally is, I definitely load up on water. I’ve noticed for sure when I drink less water, my hunger and especially my craving for sugar goes up, like significantly.

Mike: [00:30:24] I mean, the hunger is no surprise because I mean, obviously, research shows that volume, the volume of food is more connected with satiety than the calories. So you can kind of hack that a little bit, so to speak, with water. And then I think there is a little bit of research.

I feel like this isn’t fake news – that the increased water consumption has been associated with increased fat loss while dieting. And there might be a slight metabolic effect there as well. I’m not entirely 100 percent on that. I feel like I’ve come across that in my travels, but if nothing else, it definitely helps reduce hunger.

Marc: [00:31:01] Right. And again, like in addition to reducing hunger, it definitely affects energy levels. So you can train harder. And, you know, it’s definitely a hack. Like it definitely improves focus, improves, you know, it has all those benefits. So I’m serious about drinking water. And when I don’t drink enough water, like my entire day just doesn’t go as well. It’s just the truth. It sounds crazy …

Mike: [00:31:27] I’ve experienced it. I drink about a gallon of water a day. I just stick to kind of like the IOM basic, you know, they recommend – it’s probably closer to three-quarters of a gallon for men. But considering exercise and sweating and so forth, I’m drinking about a gallon a day and some water in my food, and yeah.

I’ve been doing that for years, years, years. And I’ll notice it, if I’m traveling and I don’t drink enough water, it’s not like, you know, I wouldn’t say my day’s ruined, but I will definitely notice that I have not drunk enough water. I just don’t feel right.

Marc: [00:31:55] Exactly. Even a small amount of dehydration definitely affects athletic performance for sure. So, yeah. So that’s basically the nutrition is again, I basically have a template that I follow and this is essentially what I’ve done with my own kind of like, fitness programs I’ve developed, is essentially get people to buy into this.

Like, concept of a template and concept of like, “hey, choose two to three breakfasts, three to five lunches, three to five dinners, and just kind of stick with them.” And kind of plan ahead as to, “okay, how many calories, protein and carbs is in each one? And just stick with it.” So that’s kind of what I recommend people do. And so that’s kind of the nutrition then. In terms of lifestyle …

Mike: [00:32:33] Let me ask though, before you move on. So where are your calories at approximately? Obviously, you’re not weighing and measuring everything because you did that at some point to understand. I’m sure, anybody that’s got really lean has weighed everything they’ve eaten every day at some point. So where are your calories at and how do your macros generally break down?

Marc: [00:32:53] Yeah, it’s a great question. And I did it – you know, like you said, I certainly went through a phase where I knew precisely everything. Like the number of protein, carbs, and fat, and I kind of went through that phase for probably a couple years … 

Marc: [00:33:08] Which I would say it’s a prerequisite to be able to do what you’re doing now, right? Because if you didn’t go through it, you wouldn’t know – I mean now you just know almost subconsciously, probably the foods that you like to eat, you know how much you should be eating without even thinking about it, because you know that if you were to double that portion, that doesn’t look right. You know that you couldn’t tell exactly how many calories is there but you’re like, “yeah, that’s too much. I just know that’s too much”.

Marc: [00:33:32] And I think that’s very fair for sure. And I’m just thinking here in terms of, yeah, like the number of calories, I’m probably at somewhere around like 2,300, 2,400, but it can be even lower. But I’d say probably 2,300 to 2,400. In terms of protein, carbs, kind of fat breakdown, it’s probably around like 30, 40, 30 I’m guessing.

So like, that way I think of it as kind of like a high protein, again relative to what the government recommends or whatever. Like definitely high protein, moderate carb, and kind of moderate fat. Yeah, that’s kind of what it looks like.

Mike: [00:34:13] And something else that might stand out to people is: it sounds like there’s no sugar. There are no treats at all?

Marc: [00:34:21] Great question. I don’t do too much sugar just because of all the things that I can eat, I think sugar is just bad. I just don’t like it. Like as in, I think it’s bad for the body to have too much sugar because, you know, even four grams of sugar, essentially one teaspoon of sugar. And I’m sure you’ve seen this, I got to go some of these like, kind of health conferences and stuff, and they have these organic treats and everything’s organic and raw and “healthy”, and they’ve got like 30 grams of sugar in, like a bar.

And I’m just like, “there’s nothing healthy about that.”You know what I mean? So I tend to avoid – it’s funny, that’s actually a really great point, Mike. I’m really happy you brought that up because like when I look at something, I’m about to eat it, like the nutrition facts, like that’s the first thing I look at is: what’s the sugar? Like is there a lot of sugar? If there’s a lot of sugar, I just don’t have it because it’s not nutritious.

Mike: [00:35:17] Yeah. Yeah. You know, I’ve written quite a bit about sugar and spoken a fair amount about it. And I’d say my position is: if you’re doing everything right in your diet and well, most of – if you’re doing all the big things right with your diet and your exercise and so forth, and you want to have some sugar, even if it’s every day, that’s probably fine.

If you simply don’t feel good when you eat it, then that’s probably an indication that you just probably shouldn’t be eating it. But in my case, I’ll speak personally, I like dark chocolate. So I have, I mean, it’s like, you know, maybe 100 these days, it’s like a 100, no more than 150 calories, closer to 100 calories of dark chocolate a day. Actually I haven’t looked at the sugar.

I mean, I like the dark. I think these – I’m eating like, it’s 77 percent right now, but I’ll go as high as the 80 plus just because I like – milk chocolate is okay, but I like the taste of chocolate. So I’m having a little bit of sugar there every day. It’s probably 10 or 15 grams and I know that’s not negatively impacting that health.

But yes, if you take caloric beverages, which is also something that people should note that Marc and I – we don’t drink our calories at all. I don’t. Because when you have, and in Mack’s case 2m300, 2m400 calories a day and I mean a cup of orange juice is like 100 calories. A cup of any juice.

So that’s why one of the reasons why water is great, in that you get used to it and it becomes satiating and you know, if you’re used to drinking juice eventually or soda eventually, you know, you move on, you forget about it. But yeah, I just wanted to bring up sugar, because I’m sure people listening, Marc, are like, “wait a minute. Where are the desserts? Where’s the good stuff?” [Laughing]

Marc: [00:37:02] Right. And by the way, listen, I can definitely get away with it, “get away” with, you know, eating more sugar and stuff. Like I definitely can and I have. It’s just like, in terms of maximizing my energy and maximizing how I feel, because, again, like, I’m just hyper-aware – and it’s funny you bring up dark chocolates.

I definitely used to have dark chocolate. If I was going to have something, I would have dark chocolate for sure. I think it’s fantastic. I just find personally that it’s a slippery slope, you know. In that, you know, I have one then I want another and another. And another thing to mention is, I’m a single guy so it’s easier for me – I don’t have kids, so it’s easier for me to kind of control what’s in my kitchen.

Like if I have snacks in my kitchen, like, they’re gonna be gone, I’m gonna eat them all. Right? So I tend to, you know, out of sight, out of mind, I think is insanely powerful and it’s one of the big challenges I have when I’m kind of coaching a guy who has a family and as you know, his wife loves treats and has, you know, ice cream in the freezer, like it’s really hard to kind of cook … 

Mike: [00:38:04] Chips in the pantry and all kinds of stuff out on the table or in the kitchen strewn about for, you know, little nibbles here and there that by the end of the day could be an extra 500 calories.

Marc: [00:38:19] It’s like, well what chance does that guy have? It’s serious. It’s very difficult for that guy, whereas I think kind of the ‘out of sight, out of mind’ is massively important. Like I’m structured and I don’t want to sound like – listen I’m like a total robot here – if you put, you know, cupcakes, in front of me, I’m probably going to eat them all, you know? I think I’ve just structured my life in a way to kind of maximize energy and minimize, you know, the distractions of my environment that are going to cause me to screw up all the time. 

Mike: [00:38:47] Yeah and I’m the same way. For people listening again, it sounds – some people are like “no, Mark’s a robot.” And I understand. And I’m going to say that I live – basically, if I were telling my story, it’d be the exact same story, because, I mean, for really the same reasons: I like how my body feels when I eat this way.

I’m cutting right now, but looks like I’m going to have to stop because – and this is also something I want to ask you about, that, it’s just been messing with my sleep. Like, it’s been a consistent thing now where – I just took a diet break last week. So my sleep has been – I’ll wake up multiple times at night and figured, “eh, my body I’ve been in a deficit for seven or eight weeks.

Maybe it’s time to just like, give my body a break, eat more food, train a little bit less intensely for a week.” Instantly sleep better, okay, fine. “I want to finish this cut, though.” I mean, I’m pretty lean, but I wanted to lose another two or three pounds. Go back into a deficit. Immediately sleep gets a little bit worse and progressively the cut has gotten worse.

So there’s a point here where maybe I’ve, you know, just over the course of the last couple of years, I feel like maybe accumulated a bit too much stress on my body in a number of different ways. This is the first I’ve really dealt with it. I actually don’t feel stressed myself, but that’s the best explanation I can come up with. Which I don’t get off too much on a random tangent.

But anyways, my point is this is – Marc and I, it’s not that we’re just like mentally ill and this is like some weird compulsion that we have to eat like this. And also I want to hear from you, Marc, on also another big thing people ask me about is restaurants, which we can get into in a second. But the point is like, this is what you have to do if you want to stay really lean without wanting to rip your hair out with your meal plans or without using anabolic steroids or without exercising, you know, two or three hours plus per day.

This is the kind of life. This is “I have to structure your lifestyle.” And I can – I mean, I’m on the same page with you, Marc, in that I enjoy, I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything in many ways. Actually, I feel I think I’m better off in that I don’t have the temptations, I don’t have to struggle. Because that takes energy. People don’t realize that.

I think many people don’t realize that when they are struggling to not eat the things that they want to eat and fighting with themselves mentally that exerts energy. And that energy that they’re exerting is energy that pulls from their overall pool of energy that not only is what we use for our work in our relationships and everything else that is non-physical but also physical.

I mean, there’s research that shows that even physical performance is affected by how your – you can say your mental energy state is. Like you can drain your willpower with having to resist all the snacks that are around all the time. Or even just mentally sitting there. I mean, Eric Helms has talked about it in one of his books, like some research on bodybuilders, where there was a very high percentage.

I want to say it was like 60 to 80 percent of bodybuilders that they had studied, you know, had experience like regularly fantasizing about food that they wish they could eat. And a lot of them develop eating disorders. And, you know, so that – if you can get over that, which is, I think, Marc, what you’ve probably experienced, I know what I’ve experienced, where, sure, I can have a dessert.

If I’m going to go to a restaurant, I want a dessert, I’ll have a dessert. Or I don’t have the dessert, I don’t feel an urge to. So I think there’s definitely something to be said for all the – again, because a lot of people listening to this are going to feel like, “wow, that’s a lot to sacrifice.” I mean, listen to – if you compare what you’re doing and this is also what I’m doing – the majority, we eat very similarly, actually, I just eat a bit more. For the majority of people, that sounds really un-fun. you know what I mean?

Marc: [00:42:47] I know exactly what you mean, but it’s actually … 

Mike: [00:42:50] Even that you don’t, just like because I know people that like food variety in particular, that there’s a little bit of stimulation there, “Oh! What are we gonna eat today? Where are we going for dinner? Where are we going for lunch?” That alone, for some people, is a sacrifice.

Just to go from that, to, “I know what I’m eating today, and I know what I’m meeting tomorrow, and I know what I’m eating, you know, 20 tomorrows from tomorrow.” That alone is a sacrifice, let alone actually doing it and no longer getting the greasy foods. Like the stuff, you know, sounds like your brother, for example, that would be a hard transition for him probably.

Marc: [00:43:25] Yeah, you know, it’s funny because I’ve definitely worked with him and he’s made pretty awesome progress. We actually essentially created rules for him and a lot of different strategies. But yeah, it’s something I think, you know, ultimately you also have to do a little soul searching. I mean, you’ve talked about in your book in terms of appreciating the kind of sacrifice.

And as of now, I don’t really think about it as a sacrifice at all because it’s essentially time efficient. Right? It’s productive to essentially not be wondering what am I going to have next, right? And as you said, it can drain your energy. So the idea of like me, like coming to lunch and being like, I don’t even know what I want. Maybe I’ll just go to a pizza joint right across the street, right?

Like that’s what happens to, I think to a lot of guys. So for me, it’s you know, I actually enjoy the food I have. It’s really productive. It’s time-efficient for me to kind of know in advance what I’m going to have or essentially have a template I can follow. And in terms of eating out, as we discussed, at restaurants. I mean, I lived in New York City for 13 years.

I literally eat out or ordered in like 100 percent of my dinners for like 13 years. Like I didn’t cook for a long time, you know, what I’m saying? Or for you know, for at least a large chunk of that, I didn’t cook at all. So, you know, I know what that lifestyle is like, of kind of being in a large city. You know, constantly eating out.

I customized all my meals, by the way. That’s kind of like something I talk about, I recommend people doing is like, when you go to a restaurant, I tend to make small adjustments to whatever I’m ordering, which might annoy the chef, but you know, I think it makes sense. But yeah, I think that’s …

Mike: [00:45:01] Yeah, I mean, you have to. Because I’ve talked about this in my books and I’ve written elsewhere about it and spoken about it: that restaurants are the business of making really tasty food, not caring about calories at all. And that means adding, usually it’s some sort of fat – so it’s butter, or it’s oil, or sugar depending on the food.

And then, of course, salting the shit out of it. But, you know, if you weren’t to customize your orders, you wouldn’t – I don’t know if you would’ve been able to do that or you would have had to been very, very restrictive in what you order, right?

Marc: [00:45:34] Right. I mean, I think like a classic example would be like a burger with fries. Like if you get a burger alone, it maybe is like 600, 700 calories, or even 800 calories. But like when you get the fries with it and like a soda, like that’s where it becomes like, 1,500 calories. And so I just get like a burger with a salad on the side. And that would be it.

I think like a simple customization like that makes sense. And I should mention, you know, at one point, when I was in finance kind of what inspired me to, you know, really do this for a living and help other people get in shape was, you know, I ended up gaining over 30 pounds when I was in finance.

Like, I know what it’s like to have a busy job and to kind of like use food to kind of comfort yourself. So a lot of it’s psychological as well. And so anyways, I think this more structured approach, obviously we know the benefits, I think it’s really helpful. And I think if people give it a try they might be surprised.

Mike: [00:46:30] Yeah, I agree. Something else that’s worth mentioning in going out and eating in restaurants, is if you want to stay really lean, you really can’t have, I mean, forget cheat days. That can be a disaster. Sure. You can have cheat meals, free meals, whatever you want to call them, but they have to be within reason or you will notice the change. You will gain fatback.

You might be surprised at how quickly you can notice a difference from just a few, you know, several thousand calorie days. It doesn’t have to be from the whole day, it can be from a single meal. That’s easy to do, at least for me in a restaurant. If I go in just like – I can eat to 60 or 70 percent, but it could be thousands of calories depending on what I’m eating.

And so I don’t know if you experience that, but I definitely have. When I’ve, you know, stayed super clean for months at a time, I had to basically do kind of what you’re talking about. I kind of stick to my plan at all times because the reality is, anytime I would go to a restaurant and if I were really to eat a lot, I would notice a little bit of a difference.

And that means, okay, sure, you can go into a deficit for a few days and get back to where you want to be. Yes, that’s fine. But that’s just the reality of it. You cannot go and just kind of, you know, turn it loose a few days a week and stay super lean. Unless, of course, you are like, you know, a swimmer or something and you just swim for seven hours a day.

Marc: [00:48:00] Right. Right. I mean, that’s what happened when I was a college athlete. I literally ate whatever I wanted and it was just disgusting food. Like looking back, if I knew what I knew now, I would have been a better athlete, right? But anyways, like then once I got into finance and I was sitting down all day long, that’s when I literally gained 30 pounds in like three months. It was nuts. 

Mike: [00:48:19] Because you’re eating – yeah, your habits were engineered to your previous … [laughing]

Marc: [00:48:26] Exactly. So I guess, as you know, of course, it ultimately comes down to kind of calorie balance. I mean, if you’re just eating way more calories than you’re expanding, I mean, it’s just – you’re going to gain weight. And I think when you have those like three meals a week or days a week where you’re just eating a ton of food, it’s most likely you’re going to add some fat.

And one more kind of quick thing, I don’t think we touched upon this: alcohol. I mean, one of the biggest challenges I find with guys who, you know, kind of are unable to get to that next level is alcohol. Because there’s something strange about alcohol in that even if someone drinks a little bit, it just affects their physique and affects how they look.

And I don’t know if you’ve come across this yourself, you know, working with people, with clients, but I think alcohol’s definitely the biggest challenge. It’s not even eating too much. There’s something about alcohol that inhibits people’s – I guess people lose control of their basic desire to want to stay lean.

Right? Because if you drink a little alcohol, then you start eating more food. It’s just kind of this chain of events. But anyways I think alcohol is one of the biggest challenges guys face to kind of getting to that next level and staying super lean.

Mike: [00:49:43] Yeah. Yeah. No, I’ve run into that. Not myself, I never got into drinking myself. So I can’t honestly say I’ve experienced myself. But yes, I’ve come across it many times working with people. And some people, I will say, had the guess character or the constitution for it where they could – it could be very restricted and it wouldn’t turn into anything more than what was planned.

And if, let’s say it’s once or twice a week, they wanted to have some wine with – you know, also in a meal that wasn’t a very high-fat meal because obviously – I mean, this is I guess not so obvious. I’ve written about it but for anybody that really stays off my stuff, it’s obvious to you. But one of the problems with alcohol, physiologically speaking, is: there’s no metabolic method for turning the alcohol, turning ethanol into body fat.

But it does basically increase the rate at which your body stores particularly not only fat, but also carbohydrate into fat. So you’re basically like – you turn into kind of a fat-storing machine when you’re drinking alcohol. And then what kind of foods do people normally eat when they drink? Well, fatty, disgusting foods.

So that’s basically the worst-case scenario. But if you can be very disciplined with your alcohol intake and if it’s limited to, I mean, I’d say, if we’re talking about getting and staying really lean, you probably have to limit it to probably once per week. And if it were not very much and it were with a meal that’s not a very high-fat meal, it should be fine. But like you said, Marc, very few people can do that.

Marc: [00:51:19] Totally. I think it’s one of the challenges. And I think, you know, potentially one reason why you’re so successful is you probably haven’t been drinking too much, which is a good thing. Right? I think in all seriousness, like the kind of big drinking binges, like I just don’t think that – you know, I did them all the time in my early 20’s and even through college.

And kind of looking back, I don’t think that they were like the best thing or really necessary. And, you know, these days it’s rare I do that. Really rare that I kind of go out and drink a lot. I mean, I usually have one or two drinks if I’m kind of out with friends and that’s it. Or I don’t even drink at all. So again, I think it really comes back to my kind of philosophy on health.

Which is I just want to maximize my vitality and maximize my energy. And alcohol kind of takes away from that. And so that’s kind of how I structure my whole routine and by optimizing for health and vitality, the byproduct is a super lean body. And I think that’s kind of cool, right? Like, I think that’s kind of how it works and that’s how I think about it.

Mike: [00:52:27] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that. I mean, I wouldn’t say that would be the case for everybody, because I think if you take research on setpoints, right? They’re a lot a lot more questions than answers. But basically my understanding, I wrote about this I think is, is it was a little bit ago now, so if there have been large advances then I’m actually not aware of them.

But I did a bit of research some time ago on it. And long story short, is your body, all of our body’s tend to have a certain body fat range that we kind of settle in. And there are a number of factors, number of reasons for why this is. And long story short is: some people just are able to stay very lean much easier than others.

They don’t really have to deal much with hunger and they can have good energy and have good vitality. Whereas somebody else doing the exact same thing would really not feel good and would feel much better with three or four percent more body fat.

Marc: [00:53:32] And that’s a fantastic point, Mike, in that it’s all individual. Right? You know, for me personally, like it works. Right? Like I just maximize my energy and I have a lean body. I think for other people they might need to be even stricter with their, kind of eating patterns and kind of with their exercise in order to kind of get that, you know, super lean look.

So I think that’s a great point. But I think overall, the concept of, as we’ve been discussing, of kind of limiting variety of food, it just makes it much easier. I think, you know, drinking plenty of water, not drinking too much alcohol. You know, a lot of these, kind of simple but powerful tools and strategies can really help people kind of get to that next level and stay leaner for the long term.

Mike: [00:54:16] Absolutely. Now, on lifestyle, was there something you wanted to share there? I guess the big question I think for most people would be social life. Because how do you go out and still have a good time without, like, eating a bunch of shitty food and drinking a bunch of alcohol, basically.

Marc: [00:54:32] It’s so funny. You know, like I mean, obviously, I’ve been there – like what is a good time mean. Right? Like, I can have a good time reading, I can have a good time hanging out, friends. I think ultimately it kind of depends on where people are and their maturity level, kind of what a good time means to people. Like a good time to some people means doing a triathlon, right?

So, of course, I think, you know, in terms of just kind of going to events and I live in Santa Monica, right? Like, it’s not, like super remote. Like there are people here, there are a lot of events going on. So, yeah, like I go to events, I go out. I just tend to try to get back to my apartment, like 10:00 pm or 11:00 pm. And if I’m out later at night, I’ll try to be, like back at 12:00am.

And I tend to get up pretty early, around like 5:00 am or 6:00 am. You know, at least during the week it’s usually around 6:00 am when I get up. But the past kind of month, I’ve been getting up at 5:00 am, so I’ve been going to sleep a little earlier. But anyways, back to your kind of question about having fun. I really enjoy my life.

Like I don’t go out like I used to when I was younger or nearly as much, but I still go to fun events. I go to like, you know, do a lot of different things. I explore a lot. Even last year, I actually traveled around the world for three months doing solo travel and I stayed lean and fit the whole entire time.

And I was not able to have, you know, what I wanted all the time for food. And I still was able to do it because I felt a lot of the principles and strategies that we discussed today. But yeah, I think it’s so subjective, you know, kind of what people do for fun. And again, like, I’m just an active person.

Mike: [00:56:09] Yeah. I mean, the long story short, right, is like: if eating very calorically dense foods and drinking alcohol is your idea of fun, that’s fine, but you’re never going to be able to stay really lean. It’s just not going to happen.

Marc: [00:56:26] Exactly, it’s going to be damn hard. And I think it’s a fantastic point.

Mike: [00:56:30] Unless you can exercise like six hours a day, then, yes. Then nothing matters at that point, sure. Good luck out eating how much energy you’re gonna be burning, basically.

Marc: [00:56:37] Precisely. And I think you said in a nutshell.

Mike: [00:56:43] Perfect. Well, those are all the things that I had on my list. Oh, I want to hear quickly, so the cold showers, how’s that going? Does California have cold water, though?

Marc: [00:56:52] That is such a fantastic question [laughing].

Mike: [00:56:55] [Laughing] Is it more like a lukewarm shower?

Marc: [00:56:57] So when I was in New York, I mean, it was cold.

Marc: [00:57:01] That’s truly cold. Like I’m in Virginia and I’ve been doing it, and yeah, I mean, it’s getting better, a little bit warmer now. But through the winter, that shit was ice water. It burned. Like if I kept my face under the water too long, I would get brain freeze, honestly.

Marc: [00:57:17] Totally. And actually that’s ideal. I mean it’s definitely cold out here. It’s just not as cold. Like I remember I was in as part of this kind of travel adventure I went on last year, I was in Stockholm and it was like ice – it was like one of the coldest showers I’ve ever done. It was ice cold and it was fantastic. Like, I think …

Mike: [00:57:38] Are you doing it for the same reason I am? Like health benefits is basically, “nah.” Like if you are into winter swimming and you go out and spend hours a day in ice-cold temperatures, then there are some health benefits probably.

But two minutes or two or three minutes of cold water a day, nah. It’s more just about doing something that sucks and then you become kind of Stockholm syndrome to it and then you just somehow come to like it.

Marc: [00:58:05] That’s precisely why I do it. It’s like, listen, you’re getting up in the morning, you’re a little groggy, the last thing you want to do is go into a freaking cold shower. And it’s just like, you know what? You suck it up. You do something you don’t want to do. You get outside the discomfort and you just do it.

That’s the primary reason why I do it, is to kind of build that muscle. Right? That “taking action” muscle. And then, you know, of course, there definitely are health benefits. And immediately after the shower, I’m like, ready to freaking go. 

Mike: [00:58:35] Yeah, I like that too. It definitely helps me wake up. 

Marc: [00:58:37] I don’t have that half an hour, an hour of groggy, like “where am I” thing going on. Like I am ready to freaking go. And so that’s definitely huge. But I totally agree with you. It’s like building the taking action muscle. It’s awesome. I love it. And I’ve been doing it for about a year and a half, two years now. Every freaking day.

Mike: [00:58:55] Yeah. Same. I’ve skipped some days when I’ve been sick just because it just felt like a really bad idea, I already wasn’t feeling good. But otherwise every day.

Marc: [00:59:08] Awesome.

Mike: [00:59:09] Although I spend some time in Florida and that is not even – I mean I still do it, but that truly is a lukewarm shower. There’s no such thing as a cold shower in Florida.

Marc: [00:59:17] Yeah, I can imagine.

Mike: [00:59:20] Okay, awesome. Well, that is everything that I had on my list. Is there anything that we didn’t touch on, on these topics that you think we should include?

Marc: [00:59:29] I mean, if you know, if any of the listeners here have any questions for me, you know, I’m happy to help out.

Mike: [00:59:35] Yeah, where can people find you and your work?

Marc: [00:59:38] You know, you can definitely check out, if you go to builtlean.com, you know, we have hundreds of free articles that I’ve written and we have other contributors who have written, you know, medically reviewed, properly referenced, all that stuff. And, yeah. Like, you know, I’d love for some of your listeners to check it out and learn more.

But yeah, I hope it’s been helpful. And again, like Mike, I really, really appreciate you inviting me on here. I’m a huge fan of your work. You know, you work tirelessly, you know, to help your listeners improve their health and well-being. And, you know, get stronger and bigger. And it’s just really amazing. So, again, I’m thrilled to be here. And I’m really grateful for the opportunity.

Mike: [01:00:18] Thanks a lot, Marc. I appreciate that. And yeah, I’m glad that we could get on the show and discuss this together. So, I really appreciate it. And for everybody listening, go check Marc out.

Not only is he a good guy, obviously, but he knows what he’s talking about. He has a great website, again, a lot of good information on it. And definitely one of the good guys, definitely one of the guys worth following. So builtlean.com, go check it out.