Ep. #757: Chris Barakat on Optimizing Peri-Workout Nutrition

Mike: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Muscle for Life. I’m your host, Mike Matthews. Thank you for joining me today to learn about Perry Workout Nutrition. Now, what the hell does that mean? Perry, as a prefix means around, it also means near, that’s in their definition. So Perry Workout nutrition refers to the food that you eat.

Your workout before you train in the middle of training and after training. Now, obviously I have written and spoken about these things a number of times over the years, but I wanted to get Chris Barraca back on the show to break down, not just the fundamentals, and that’s mostly what I’ve focused on, but the neediest and grittiest of details for people who.

To optimize every aspect of their Perry workout nutrition. Is that necessary? No, of course not. But is it fun for people who like to geek out on this stuff? Yes. Absolutely. And is it worth considering if you are an intermediate or an advanced weightlifter who is no longer making progress like you once were?

Because that’s just how the game works. And especially if you are close to your. Potential for muscle and strength gain and you’re trying to really get to that finish line. Yes, I do think in that case it makes sense to put more attention on your peri workout nutrition than you did in the past because it may be able to add, let’s say, a few more percent to the bottom line results that you get from your training.

Now that by itself is not exciting, but what if you could add three or four or five other things that also add a few percent to the bottom line? Now cumulatively we. Really moving the needle, and that is part of the game as a natural weightlifter. If you are really trying to get as big and strong as possible, you are looking for as many little optimizations and advantages as you can get through nutrition strategies, recovery strategies, training strategies, supplementation, strategies, and.

So that is why I am bringing this episode to you today. Again, I’m doing it with Chris Barat, who is not only a member of Legion’s Scientific Review Board, but he’s also a published researcher. He’s an educator, he’s a coach. He is a natural bodybuilder. And an all around good guy. So he’s had many years of developing both his book Smarts and his in the trenches at the Coal Face Street Smarts, and I always enjoy talking, lifting with him because he loves this stuff.

And in this interview, Chris breaks down what Perry Workout Nutrition is. He talks about specific macros and food choices for both pre-workout and post-workout eating. He talks about the gly. Index of your carb choices and whether that matters. We talk about carbohydrates, supplements, intra workout, nutrition and more.

Also, if you like what I am doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you, is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. And we’re on. Because every ingredient and dose in every product is backed by peer-reviewed scientific research.

Every formulation is 100% transparent. There are no proprietary blends, for example, and everything is naturally sweetened and flavored. So that means no artificial sweeteners, no artificial food dyes, which may not be as dangerous as some people would have you believe. But there is good evidence to suggest.

Having many servings of artificial sweeteners in particular every day for long periods of time may not be the best for your health. So while you don’t need pills, powders, and potions to get into great shape, and frankly, most of them are virtually useless, there are natural ingredients. That can help you lose fat, build muscle, and get healthy faster, and you will find the best of them in legion’s products to check out everything we have to offer, including protein powders and protein bars, pre-workout, post workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more.

Head over to www.by leg. Dot com, B Y legion.com. And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code M F L at checkout and you will save 20% on your entire first order. So again, if you appreciate my work and if you wanna see more of it, and if you also want all natural evidence based supplements that work, please do consider supporting Legion so I can keep doing what I love, like producing more podcasts like this.

Hey Chris, thanks for coming back on my show. I’m excited to have you here. This is number two, right? Yes, 

Chris: sir. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on, Mike. Yeah. The first one 

Mike: I got a lot of good feedback on, so I should have done this sooner, but such as life. Here we are though, and we’re gonna talk about Perry Workout.

Nutrition, and I think the place to start there is, 

Chris: what does that mean? For sure. Yeah, man, A super simple way to put it is essentially what are you eating around your workout window? So you know, just compromises of your pre-workout meal and your nutritional strategy there, potentially an workout if you are utilizing anything while exercising, and then your post workout meals.

So these strategies can be used essentially to. Maximize your acute training performance and also acute recovery, which can lead to better outcomes over the long term when it can come to things like your strength adaptations, your muscle adaptations, or your body composition outcomes. So yeah, something I’m super passionate about talking about.

And. The level of detail is definitely gonna matter based on your experience level, and for some populations in situations it’s really not that important or you don’t need to give it too much or time and energy. But for other situations or different contexts, it can really be pretty valuable just to ensure people are continuing to perform well, recover well, and get the body composition outcomes they’re looking.

And 

Mike: just to comment quickly, just so you understand, I think where a lot of people listening are at and what I’ve talked about in my books, and I’ve probably commented, it’s been a while here on the podcast and written about certainly in the past, and I’ve kept it very simple because I knew that I. Have been speaking to from the beginning to mostly people who are relatively new to proper weightlifting, proper strength training and proper nutrition.

And so I’m giving them a lot of information to metabolize as it is. And so as far as pre and post workout, I didn’t even talk about intro workout. Other than maybe saying, Don’t worry about it , but just pre and post workout nutrition. I kept it real simple and I have continued to, and I’ve said, Hey, if you haven’t eaten protein in the last couple of hours before a workout, not a bad idea to have some protein before you train and have some carbs too, because you are probably gonna have a little bit better of a workout if you do.

And. Have some protein within maybe an hour or so of finishing your workout. You don’t have to try to rush to get in protein before the anabolic window closes, but it’s probably a good idea within an hour or so and having some carbs may or may not matter. This is something that I know you’re gonna.

Get into and I’ll be curious as to your thoughts on that. And as far as dietary fat goes, again, based on my understanding of things, it doesn’t seem to matter much one way or another. Do what you like. It’s the protein and the carbs. And particularly the protein. And that’s basically it. That’s I just told people if you do that, you’re doing 

Chris: it mostly right?

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s super important. I love what you do cuz you really focus on the foundational. The things that are most important where most people focus on the things that are least important and are actually neglecting the things that are most important. So I know you focus a ton on energy balance, like 

Mike: supplements, for example.

a lot, Way too much emphasis on 

Chris: supplements, particularly from supplement marketers. Exactly, yeah. Like the pyramid that Helms made super popular of having energy balance at the very bottom, and then macronutrients and micronutrients, and then nutrient timing, and then supplements. That order does hold true, and I think each component of the pyramid does have some sort of value.

That’s why it’s there. But unfortunately, people put supplements first, nutrient timing second. Maybe micronutrients 

Mike: as clean eating or they look at it the other way around. It’s oh, it’s the capstone. That’s the most important. That’s where the all seeing eye, that’s the Illuminati. That’s the one I want.

Chris: Exactly. So they have backwards a lot of times, and they’re focusing on things they don’t need to be focusing on because they’re not even paying attention to something that is of way more important value. Yeah. But I think context is super important and like even for a beginner intermediate, there’s a big difference in regards to how you’re gonna feel in the gym if you’re eating calorie maintenance.

In a calorie surplus versus being in an extended calorie deficit. So just as an example, like we know that as you’re in a deficit for an extended period of time, your muscle glycogen stores are going to be depleted. Even your liver glycogens gonna be depleted a bit. And if you’re doing quote unquote body building training or your training in that, Let’s call it, six to 20 rep range.

A lot of that does rely on a decent amount of glucose coming in. And if you don’t have that in your muscle cell, you can notice that your performance starts to take a hit when you are in a deficit for an extended period of time. So that’s when you know your pre-workout meal is gonna be way more important compared to when you’re in a surplus and your energy reserves like your glycogen stores are full, or even your body.

Percent is higher, you just have more energy to tap into. The phase that you’re currently in is super, super important to consider and it shifts the level of importance of this peri workout timing. Yeah. And anybody listening 

Mike: who has done. A proper lean bulk or like lean gaining phase as well as a proper cutting phase and has eaten a fair amount of carbs before workouts in both of those phases has experienced that.

Of course, I’ve experienced it many times where when I’m in maintenance or particular if in a surplus, most of my workouts just feel great regardless of whether, I remember it’s been a while since I’ve been consistently in a surplus, but I remember at that time I was training early in the morning.

Which, like basically everyone, that means that the workouts are a little bit harder. They certainly feel a little bit harder, but there was a big difference training at 6:30 AM in a surplus versus 6:30 AM in a deficit. Fasted . Even in a deficit, like you said, when you get deeper into it the carbs help 

Chris: before workout, but there’s 

Mike: no way to really re.

The experience of a good lean bulk, especially as you get into it and you start gaining momentum, other than just doing it, unfortunately, maybe drugs, but there’s no natural way, There are no supplements that can do it for you, and no special foods or nutrition 

Chris: or even training strategies. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, absolutely. There’s definitely no special foods. It’s interesting, like when you’re in a surplus or at maintenance, you can train fasted, and if glycogen levels are relatively full, like you’ll still get a great. You’re not really gonna see performance dipping, but as you mentioned, if you’ve done an extended diet and you’ve been in a deficit for a long period of time, if I trained faster, or if some of my clients trained faster than a deficit, they’ll report back like, Hey, I felt way weaker.

I couldn’t hit the same numbers. I fell a fewer up short, and my pump sucked. And it’s yeah, you don’t have that fuel source actually providing you with the energy to have those sufficient contractions and to perform on the gym. So in those cases, A bit more important to actually focus on the pre-workout meal and stuff like that.

But in regards to food sources, I wouldn’t say there’s anything magical, but believe it or not, I still, I do focus some thought and energy into the glycemic index of different food sources for pre-workout meals. Yeah I’m curious 

Mike: because what immediately jumps to mind there is, I remember writing some time ago based on some research that I had looked at, that it probably doesn’t make that big of a difference, and I was recommending at that time people just eat the carbs that they like.

I like banana before. I like to eat a banana before I train, and if I want more carbs, there was a time when I would mix protein powder with rice milk, so I would get about 20 grams. Carbs cuz it just tasted good and it was just easy carbs. And then I’d eat a banana so whatever. 40 grams or so.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting, a lot of the data we have on performance and pre-workout nutrition is unfortunately in a lot of endurance athletes or. People doing some sort of aerobic exercise, like a moderate intensity, but with some of the data shows is like having lower glycemic carbohydrates. It can basically provide you with more stable amounts of blood glucose throughout your training session, and it can decrease the likelihood of you going hypoglycemic.

So essentially having less blood sugar in your plasma while exercising compared to baseline. So that’s where you feel like you’re crashing. You might get lightheaded, so you know there can be. A reason to pre a low glycemic carb. And then another thing that I actually provide a little bit more importance is low glycemic carbs have been shown to reduce hunger a bit.

So again, if you’re tracking your calories and you’re counting your macronutrients and you’re in a diet, That’s awesome and that’s going to be the most important thing. However, if you’re not paying attention to food sources, you might be making a little bit harder on yourself to sustain a diet. If you’re not picking foods that are, satiating you to a good extent, therefore, it’s just gonna make.

Adhering to the diet a little bit harder. If you are in a deficit, let’s just call it 500 calories, whatever it may be, but you’re starving all the time. It’s gonna be harder to stick to compared to, you’re in this deficit, but your satiety is not like your society’s great and your hunger’s not really an issue.

It’s not problematic. So the data does show that Utilizing low glycemic carbs can be beneficial in that way. 

Mike: And do you think that is because of where they fall in the glycemic index or do you think it’s more related to the types of foods that are generally low glycemic are just, they have more fiber often, for example and are inherently more filling.

Yeah, 

Chris: it’s, That’s interesting. Some of the studies are obviously utilizing, so the low glycemic carbs, it might be more of a whole food that has more fiber, so therefore it’s gonna. Lead to a smaller insulin spike and a more stable blood glucose level. But there is some data too that actually took low glycemic sources medium glycemic sources and high glycemic sources, and they actually blended it into a smoothie and they still saw the benefits.

From the low glycemic sources. So it’s probably a combination of the two. And this may 

Mike: be a dumb question, but would blending into a smoothie, I 

Chris: mean the fiber’s still there. Yeah, for sure. The fiber is absolutely still there. I just found that interesting because obviously then the surface area of what you’re digesting is gonna be very similar if you basically made it a liquid.

So I found that interesting cuz every. States, Oh if you’re consuming this with a protein and a fat, which most people do, it’s not gonna make a difference. But yeah, it seems like there’s still something there. And then what I’ve seen with just clients that I’ve worked with, and even myself, there is some sort of benefit where if they’re in the gym for longer than 60 minutes, they need something that’s gonna sustain them for.

Longer. Having something like a sweet potato just might be a smarter move compared to having something like a Pop Tart, now is this gonna completely change their results? No, but if you’re doing this on a daily basis, over a time span of, 12 weeks, it probably can just enhance your.

Results the tad because you’re gonna be performing at a higher level, potentially recovering at a higher level. And we know that’s essentially driving the adaptations we’re looking for. Yeah, and that’s 

Mike: something that I often talk about is just that longer term view of, really there aren’t that many.

Nutritional training. Beyond the basics, there aren’t that many things. We can add supplements to make that much of a difference, and if we look at them individually, so let’s just say that through the stuff you’re gonna be sharing on this podcast, somebody could get three or 5% better results. That may be too high, but let’s just say it’s in that, Let’s just say it’s a number that sounds very low to people.

They’re like why even bother? Yeah, if that’s all you did, but what if you add now creatine and what if you add, if we’re talking supplements, what if you now add citraline and beta alanine? And what if you now address some deficiencies in your programming that again, give you just little. Increases in your bottom line results.

While all of those things can have maybe a cumulative effect of 15 to 20% faster muscle and strength gain, and that’s pretty cool, even for people who are committed to this as a lifestyle and who plan on doing this for the rest of their lives, and so who then are not too concerned. With the absolute progress, so long as they’re making progress.

And I think that’s a good perspective to have, but making more progress is more fun. It is . 

Chris: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And like you mentioned, they can compound on top of one another and for some people, if they are getting slightly better results at a faster rate, that might be what.

Keeps them in the game and keeps them true motivated or keeps them on track of their, training and nutrition regimen. Some people are like, Oh, I don’t wanna stress another small variable, and there’s a line that you need to draw. It’s like sometimes making a small adjustment that can lead to a small benefit is worth it.

It is essentially worth it. Like the return of the investment is there, because if that’s motivating you or if you’re. Better results and that’s keeping you in the game, then that’s something that you should put energy and time into thinking about. You know what I’m saying? Yeah, that’s a good 

Mike: point. I would say I agree that anything that increases, we can skip maybe the kind of fuzzy term motivation, but just go straight to compliance and how that ties into enjoyment.

If if you are enjoying your workouts generally, for example, and if you like your programming, you’re probably going to apply yourself a little bit more. And then of course then that means you’re gonna be more consistent. You’re gonna be a lot less likely to skip workouts. And so if you can find little things that can affect how you enjoy your diet, how you enjoy your training, and how well you can stick to the plan, they can act like force multipliers, even if they’re little things like what 

Chris: you’re talking.

Yeah, for sure. 

Mike: I totally agree. That is something that I’ve noticed just having interacted with a lot of people regarding supplementation is that a lot of people, especially Legion customers, understand because I’ve really gone outta my way to help them understand that there are no magic pills, powders, or potions.

But if you have the budget and you have inclination, there are certain things that are worth considering and parti. As it relates to health and wellness and vitality, but I’ve just found with having spoken to so many people, one of the things that people like about supplements is they understand that even if they’re not doing that much, that little bit that they are adding just helps keep them motivated and helps keep them on track, and it keeps ’em in the mindset of, Doing everything they can or everything that they can reasonably do to get the most out of the effort they’re putting into following their meal plan and getting in the gym.

Yeah. Yeah, 

Chris: absolutely. 

Mike: So with a pre-workout meal then, what does that look like for you? Let’s talk about. Cutting and maintaining and lean, gaining specifically, I’m curious how the macros break down for you and what you would generally recommend, and then also food choices. You mentioned a sweet potato.

For those of us who may not want to eat a sweet potato at 6:00 AM , What else? What other options do we have if we wanted to go with something that’s lower 

Chris: gi, yeah. So for pre-workout nutrition, something that’s interesting is. The quantity of food that I’m eating for my pre-workout and post-workout is almost identical.

When I’m cutting, maintaining, or bulking, I actually make the largest calorie adjustments from meals furthest away from my workout window. So something I like recommending is I usually recommend around one gram of carbohydrate. Kilogram of total body weight. So let’s just say you have 175 pound male.

They would be eating around, 80 carbs pre-workout. I like utilizing a combination of a low glycemic starchy source. And I also like combining that with a fruit source. So when you combine a starchy source that’s gonna break down primarily into glucose, and then you combine that with a fruit source, that is going to break down into some fructose.

You’re actually providing your body. Two different avenues to essentially absorb those carbohydrates and have blood sugar in your blood to be utilized this fuel and energy while you’re exercising. So that’s just a really good way to make sure that you’re digesting your food in a very efficient manner, that you can actually utilize what you’re eating while you’re in the gym.

A typical pre-workout meal for me, it could be something like oatmeal with maybe a little bit of fat coming from something like walnut or almond butter or something like that. And then the fruit source can be something like a banana, as you mentioned, maybe dried raisins. Something really small. It’s not gonna have too much water, not gonna have too much fiber as well.

Mike: If you want some extra nutrients, you could throw some. Blueberries in 

Chris: your oatmeal and that’d be good. Yeah, absolutely. And then I just make sure I have a sufficient amount of protein in there too. So I might do like a scoop and a half away and that’s really it, make sure I add some salt for basically carbohydrate transport properties of that and making sure that my electrolytes are in there.

So I’m staying well hydrated throughout on training. And that’s really it. But the multiple transportable carbohydrate component is pretty. Because if you’re combining, again, a starchy source with a fruit source, it’s gonna make that digestion process a little bit easier. And then you’re gonna basically have more stable levels of blood glucose throughout your training session.

So the likelihood of you feeling like you’re gonna crash is going to be a bit lower. That’s great. 

Mike: Wow, 80 grams. Even when you’re cutting, that means it matters to you. Because , if we’re talking about just enjoying maybe not. I guess it depends when you train, Like for me, if I was I’ve changed my training times over the years.

Now I’m back to a, not earlier morning. I’m getting in the gym at eight 30 maybe, but not particularly hungry. So if I were cutting and wanting to optimize for experiencing as little hunger as possible, then I probably wouldn’t want to. That much carbohydrate before I train. Even if it’s gonna make my workouts better, I would just say, Eh, I’ll just have maybe a little bit worse workouts.

And really all I’m doing is trying to maintain strength and muscle anyway. Yeah. But it’s been a while. It’s been a while since I’ve had that much carbohydrate and that number. When you said that, it popped into my head that I actually have talked about that, but I rem, I think I. Giving it some context, saying basically, if you want to get absolutely everything you can out of pre-workout carbs, you probably want to get up that high.

But if you just don’t want to have that much food, for example, before you train, then having half of that amount. Is gonna be better probably than 

Chris: none. Oh yeah. And the timing of it is super important. So I wouldn’t be able to eat, 80 grams of carbs and 45 grams of protein if I’m trying to train in 45 minutes.

But if I’m training ’em like 90 minutes from now or two hours from now, I definitely could. I am considering it like a hardy meal that I’m digesting. I know a lot of people like to have more of a much smaller meal. I’m still getting a adequate amount of protein, but more of a snack as their pre-workout.

And that’s where it would probably just be. Again, a scoop or a scoop and a half away with a banana. So maybe you’re getting like 25 grams of carbs instead of, a full meal, like 80. So the timing’s really important. Something that’s interesting is when I am in a surplus or in an off season, that same exact meal, the same calories in macros.

I might feel like it’s taking two to three hours to digest. Yep. 

Mike: Just cuz you’re always full. That’s the . If you’re actually in a surplus, for anybody who hasn’t done it right, try it at some point and within a couple of months, just how, like after a couple of months of cutting you’re sick of cutting.

Even if you’re taking diet breaks, like you’re ready to eat more food, you’re, you can feel it. On the flip side, after a couple of months of lean bulking, even. take diet breaks in the other direction where you’re like, All right, it’s been six weeks of overfeeding. I’m just gonna take a week and chill out a little bit.

You eventually get to that point where you can’t, you’re just always full, and you half the time feel like you’re force feeding yourself and you just can’t wait to actually cut. You just can’t wait to cut your calories in half, basically. 

Chris: Exactly. That’s where I was two weeks ago, man. So it’s it. Like the deeper you get into a cut, you can eat a meal and you’ll be hungry like 30 minutes after you ate like a hardy big meal and you’re like, What the heck?

That was a lot of food, and I’m like already hungry. So the timing is gonna vary, based upon that context. For sure. 

Mike: That makes sense. Might as well throw this out here now, it’s gonna apply to intro workout, which is what we’ll get to next and post workout. But what are your thoughts on carbohydrate supplements?

I get asked this fairly often, people. Will often ask why Legion doesn’t create a carbohydrate supplement, which I guess is me tipping my hand as to what I think about them. But I’m curious as to your take, and if you have a different take, that’s totally fine. Of course. My, just to quickly summarize, the reason why I don’t make one is I don’t feel I could honestly promote.

A carbohydrate supplement in a way that would make people want to buy it. Similar to BCAAs, BCAs are absolutely useless. At least a carbohydrate supplement has a use BCAs really do not, unless you’re not eating enough protein, or maybe you’re like training some obscene amount and why you’re doing that anyway, kind of thing.

But anyway. What are your thoughts on some of these fancier, and they’re often expensive too. Carbohydrate, supple. 

Chris: Yeah, like I have utilized some of the fancier ones, like I’ve supplemented with highly brand cyclic reduction and then I’ve done the cheaper stuff, just like a simple Gatorade. And then sometimes I’d utilize something like a pomegranate juice actually, cuz again I get like 50% glucose, 50% fr glucose from that.

See, that makes more 

Mike: sense to me than paying. 40 to $50 a month for what sometimes is just like dextrous and mal, like 

Chris: for sure. Oh, mal kills my stomach, I can’t have it. It ruins me. So what I do is it depends on the context. So for people that are truly bulking, as you mentioned, you get to this point where like you just don’t want to eat food anymore.

So it can just be an easy way to increase your total calories. And potentially improve performance a tad, right? So in an off season or someone in a surplus, I can utilize an intra workout just to have them like reduce the size of their actual whole food meals because they’re already full. And it’s it’s literally difficult to get the food down for some people.

So it can be a tool then. And if you’re 

Mike: digesting food slow, right? And you get in the gym and you feel full and then now you’re squatting heavy and the food’s coming up and that, that’s no. 

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Like you’d be way better off waiting longer to make sure that you feel like you’ve digested your food well, rather.

Training on a full stomach. I really don’t like that feeling. It’s definitely not good for you because when people do that, their digestive system essentially turns off momentarily, like while they’re exercising and all the blood is going to their peripheral tissue, and then they still will finish their workout and force another post workout meal in, even though they’re still like, Not done digesting their pre.

So that can be disastrous, and that’s part of the reason why some people get really bloated and just have GI issues and like really poor regularity with bowel movements and stuff in an off season. So yeah, timing your nutrients in that sense can be important.

Mike: If you like what I’m doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you, is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. For anybody wondering on the timing, let’s say they’re gonna have a smaller meal, let’s say it is just the scoop or scoop and a half of protein powder in a banana before a workout what are your thoughts on.

Chris: Yeah, for I would do as, as short as 30 minutes and no longer than 60. We know something like a whe protein isolate that should peak in your, the amino acid content should peak at around just 30 minutes post consumption. So I think you’re good to go after, 30 to 60 minutes, you should be fine.

Yeah, that makes sense. There is some data on carbohydrate digestion, at least from like liquid sources. You can’t oxidize more than one gram per minute. So let’s just say you had. 60 grams of carbs pre-workout and you’re training in 30 minutes, there’s a very high likelihood you still haven’t digested 30 out of the 60 grams you consumed, if that makes sense.

So yeah, you can use that as the gauge for timing, but just listening to like your biofeedback signals and hungers and fullness is fine. 

Mike: And the point there with the digestion, That, okay, we want this stuff to get broken down into glucose. We want it to be circulating in our blood. We don’t want it to be in the process of being digested for the reason you just gave.

Chris: Yeah, for sure. And again, it’s more important while you’re cutting because when glycogen levels are very depleted let’s just say for example, we’re training chest and back, like we’re doing an upper body workout and we don’t have much glycogen stored in our skeletal muscle at the time. Like our body can’t.

Take glycogen from our quadriceps and hamstrings and utilize it for that chest and back workout. So unless you have glucose like floating around in your blood and present, you probably are gonna have some sort of performance detriment, if that makes sense. Or it’s not gonna be as optimal as it could be if that fuel source was readily available.

So you just wanna make sure that. There, there is some data that’s interesting. Again, this is cherry picking a study, why not? I’ll share it anyway. There was a study in 2001 by tarping and colleagues and they utilized intra workout carbohydrates around 50 grams while resistance training and They considered them intermediate trainees, and what they saw was, is interesting.

The groups that were consuming intra work carbohydrates, they did have an acute reduction in cortisol and. Interestingly, after nine weeks of training, it did lead to, there was a correlation between the groups that had lower cortisol and then the changes in hypertrophy to fiber size. So there was a strong correlation there.

You 

Mike: know, that’s something Lyle McDonald I remember wrote about some time ago why he was recommending, I don’t remember if it was intra workout, but he was talking about including a fair amount of carbohydrate in a post workout meal, if I remember correctly. I don’t wanna put words in his. But that’s just one of those little details that stuck in my mind, and I think he was acknowledging.

It is slightly hypothetical given the data, but he thought that there was a good argument for that. Based on this point in particular, just generally having lower cortisol levels being good, that’s a more anabolic environment, so to speak. 

Chris: Again, how much is it gonna help? It’s probably really small, but if you are trying to cross your T’s and dot your.

It can potentially help. And again, it’s just more important based on context. So if you’re dieting or you’re training fasted, like you already know that your cortisol levels are higher anyway, just from the deficit alone. So yeah, potentially utilizing an inter workout carb can be beneficial in that specific context.

So I do utilize them, but the duration of the workout matters too. If you’re only training for 45 minutes, you probably don’t need it. That’s why 

Mike: I haven’t made, That’s why Legion hasn’t made one, just because again, The vast majority of our customers are everyday normal people who are into fitness, they have three to five hours a week to give to it.

Their workouts are 45, maybe 60 minutes. I do have people like you, but just in the minority. So again, if I were to create a product like that, and if I were to promote it, honestly most. Customers would pass and rightfully 

Chris: Yeah, no, I agree. I totally get that. So it just depends, like also, are you doing, more power lifting training or you’re doing triples or five repetition work, or are you doing things like 10 plus reps or even up to 20?

So that’s gonna play a role there too, just to ask 

Mike: on this intro workout point, which is the next thing I wanted to talk about anyway. So segueing off of the carbohydrate supplements, which you were saying in. Instances. If you’re bulking and you just are sick of eating food, you could make that work.

I, I would say, you probably don’t need to buy one of the more expensive ones. I don’t know if you agree with that. But then as far as intro workout, if you are, let’s say you have a pretty long session coming up and you want to try to make it as productive as possible, you could use one of those supplements, but if you didn’t want to use a supplement, what else?

You had mentioned Pomegranate juice, for example, other juices or a Gatorade or some. Sugar sweetened beverage or Yeah, for 

Chris: sure. Or some more fruit. Yeah, I’ve done powdered Gatorade just cause it’s so cheap. Like I think I got maybe 90 servings for $9, Like something ridiculous, right? Where it’s just powdered dextro.

So I’ve done powdered gatorades and like I mentioned the pomegranate juice, but it’s gonna vary based on the duration of my session. The intensity I’m training at based on like repetition goals. So is it more of a strength day or is it more of a metabolic day? But the thing I find interesting if people know that, let’s just say they supplement like beta aine or caffeine, might help them squeeze out a few more reps.

Like we know it’s good for muscular endurance and they’re taking something like that, but they’re paying zero attention to their pre-workout nutri. I still feel like they’re missing something there. Like we know that if you have a better meal that’s providing you with proper substrate while training, that can also improve your pump the same way su malate can improve your 

Mike: pump.

Yeah. If you’re gonna do one, then by the same logic you should. Consider doing the other, and you should start with the nutrition because of then of course you can also accomplish your nutritional goals, like you’re talking about eating stuff that you may want to eat anyway, like oatmeal. I have fun at.

My last meal of the day is oatmeal with walnuts and sometimes I’ll put some blueberries in it. Sometimes I’ll just eat the blueberries by themselves earlier in the day and I’ll usually put a little bit of maple syrup to sweeten it, some salt and a little bit of milk and. I’m doing that for my serving of whole grains, and I’m doing that to get in some more fat because I don’t eat too much saturated fat.

And anyway, so if you are using your pre-workout meal to also just get in, okay, there’s a serving of fruit. Cool. You check that box, maybe you want to get in one more, maybe two vegetables, probably save for another meal and those are not gonna be very useful for pre-workout. But then you can get in some whole grains, you can get in some healthy fats and 

Chris: benefit your.

Yeah, absolutely. That’s a great point you make. Like I just tell most people to try to get, two servings of fruit per day, closer to the minimum, and like an easy way to do it. Just, okay, one serving pre, one serving post, boom, that box is checked off. So yeah, I totally agree. It can just be a way to make sure you’re taking care of other variables that.

Can provide you with a benefit and checking off other boxes that you’re aiming to do. 

Mike: So let’s go back to intro workout here. So we have, you spoke a little bit about using carbs. What about protein? And if we’re talking, I guess maybe quickly comment on fat as well. Also regarding pre-work. I don’t think we mentioned 

Chris: anything on that.

Yeah, so I’ll just backtrack super quick to pre-work out and the fat intake, that’s gonna heavily depend on how far away your training session. So let’s just say I’m training like three hours or two and a half hours, two hours. From that time I’m eating, it’s probably gonna be a little bit higher in fat just to slow down the digestion and make sure like I’m not on empty by the time I get to the gym, if that makes sense.

Whereas if I’m training 60 minutes, it’s gonna be lower in fat. But generally speaking that. That’s not a meal where I get too much fat in at all. Maybe anywhere from five to 15 grams, Nothing too heavy there. And then in regards to the intra workout, this also varies based on what I did pre-workout.

So if it’s someone who’s training fasted okay, let’s say they didn’t eat a meal, but they’re training for more than 45, 60 minutes and they want fuel coming in. Intra, that’s where I might introduce. 10 grams or maybe 15 grams of away isolate. Otherwise, I’m just leaving it alone. If you had a sufficient protein feeding 60 minutes ago, 90 minutes ago, I don’t see the point of having any additional amino acids coming in cuz they’re, They should be present in your blood anyway, so 

Mike: somebody’s training fasted for people wondering wait, why would I want to have a little bit of food 

Chris: if I’m trying to train fasted?

Sure. So if you’re training fast just because of convenience, like you just wanna wake up, get it done first thing in the morning for time purposes, and your schedule, again, if you’re training longer than 45 minutes, we know that having some carbohydrate coming in can provide you with that energy substrate you need to continue to perform well.

We also know that resistance training itself acutely catabolic, like you’re actually breaking down muscle protein while lifting. So if you have a little bit of am. That’s coming in through a liquid source that can potentially mitigate how much amino acid you’re actually using from muscle tissue, since it’s gonna already be present in your blood at that time.

So it can be beneficial in very specific cases. But it’s not something I focus too much on. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And then obviously post workout, you wanna make sure you are stimulating muscle protein synthesis and really starting that recovery process again since you were resistant training.

Or even not, even if you’re doing aerobic exercise, you were doing something that was acutely, catabolic. And that’s something that 

Mike: I’ve talked about and written about. But if somebody listening. 

Chris: Heard or, 

Mike: or seen that before and is surprised to hear, Wait a minute, what you’re saying, training.

Isn’t that an anabolic activity? Isn’t that building things up well? No. Literally breaking muscle tissue down by training it. And then the metabolism occurs 

Chris: afterward. Yeah. And then so for post workout, 

Mike: is there anything else to add 

Chris: to intro workout? No Intro I believe is covered.

Pretty well. I guess maybe 

Mike: one little thing to note regarding face training is for anybody wondering, let’s say they’re doing it and they’re combining it. Let’s say you have a lean person who’s dieting to get really lean and they’re combining it with some yohi being and maybe some caffeine to try to just lose those stubborn fat deposits a little bit faster.

And they may be thinking if I were to do 10 or 15 grams of weight, is that going to break my fast? Is that going to. Raise insulin levels too much to make the yoy being ineffective for fat loss purposes. 

Chris: Yeah it’s tough to say. So again let’s say you’re training for 60 minutes, just for an example.

And you’ve taken Yohe, been in caffeine pre-workout to maximize the acute fat oxidation. You can still potentially introduce that intra workout like midway through your session, so it’s not like something you’re consuming on set, number one. And another thing to consider is, let’s just say that’s 10 or 15 grams of whe and even 20 grams of carbohydrate.

You’re not drinking that all at once. So if you’re sipping on it you literally might be consuming like two grams of carbs and two grams of protein, like per sip or whatever it may be. So it’s hard to say if that’s gonna quote unquote break your fast. But obviously the amino acids within WHE protein are very insulinogenic, it can definitely spike insulin, but that’s more so if you’re consuming a whole ball at once. It’s hard to say if you’re just sipping it throughout a the end of the 30 minutes of the workout. It’s hard to say. Yeah, and 

Mike: ironically, many people who train faster will sip on BCAAs. , which of course they do affect insulin levels as well.

We’re talking about a small effect, but you would also see a small effect from a small amount of weigh and even if you had carbs sipped on. But yeah. Let’s move to post workout now and lay out the couple of scenarios here of, okay, somebody has eaten before. They’ve worked out, how should they approach it?

If they haven’t, Let’s say they trained fasted, maybe they did have some way, maybe they didn’t or BCAAs or hmb, or maybe they didn’t. And yeah, I’ll let you break it down also, if you approach it differently when cutting versus maintaining and lean bulking and so 

Chris: forth. Sure, sure. I’ll start when it’s of the highest priority and that would be as if you trained, fasted and you did nothing in workout, so you’re still, quote unquote on empty.

That’s when your post-workout meal is gonna be most important. You already went into the training session, perhaps in a quote, catabolic state, and then further. Underwent an activity that is, again, breaking muscle protein down and stuff. So that’s one is gonna be most important. In that scenario, I would go with a fast acting protein or fast digesting protein, like a way isolate.

However, if you did have a pre-workout meal and you potentially even utilized intro as well. That’s when that post workout meal is going to be not as important in regards to getting it in like immediately post workout. And that’s also another example of when you may not need something like a way isolate post workout and you can just stick to whole food that’s gonna digest a little bit slower.

So all of that definitely matters. In regards the amount of protein is, again, just gonna vary based on the size of the individual and how much lean body mass they have. But for most people, it’s usually anywhere from 25 to 45 grams of WHE protein is gonna do the job. And then if you’re having whole food, You actually generally need to increase that protein a bit.

So it might be anywhere from 30 to 55 grams of protein from whole food, just because there’s generally less leucine in like whole food animal products compared to a weight isolate by gram of weight, basically. Yeah, by even by Graham of just Graham For Graham. Yeah, let’s take something like for me, for example, I know.

About 35 grams of way isolate maximizes my protein synthetic response because of the amount of leucine that’s in that, Is that 

Mike: around three grams or so 

Chris: or is it more For me it’s 3.5 grams. There’s a specific number. It’s very nerdy and it’s, super advanced, but it’s 0.045 grams of leucine per kilogram of body weight.

So that’s out of, I like it. . Yeah, it’s super nerdy. 

Mike: Maximum attention to detail. Yeah. That’s 

Chris: from Stewart Phillips lab. As an example, 175 pound male would need 3.5 grams of leucine. 120 pound female would need 2.4 grams of leucine. So that’s gonna, change how much weigh they may need. 

Mike: Yeah. And that’s where you get that range.

So the woman would be fine with the lower end of the range, whereas the man would want toward the, 

Chris: toward the top. For sure. For sure. So usually it’s like a scoop. For most people, you 

Mike: know? Yeah, I mean I think I’ve generally told people, I think I’ve actually just split it by gender actually. I was like, Women, you can be in the twenties and then men, you might as well just be in 30 to 40.

Just keep it simple. 

Chris: Exactly. And it’s interesting cuz like 35 grams of protein from, let’s just say chicken breasts or something, is actually gonna have less leucine than 35 grams of protein from weight plus, They’re different. Yeah, that makes sense. Super technical, super detailed, nerdy stuff that the gen pop does not need to stress about.

But yeah, that’s 

Mike: almost just for fun. But it’s worth saying . 

Chris: Yeah. I focus on, these super competitive bodybuilders that are really like, Trying to basically do everything possible in their power. And then 

Mike: what about carbs and fat? What are your thoughts on that in the post workout scenario? 

Chris: So carbs, there are like things that are gonna digest really quick and easily, especially if I’m having a large amount of them.

And is that something you recommend? 

Mike: I’m curious. 

Chris: Yeah, I do. I do. Again, there’s some data there whether you wanna. Look at the data on cortisol. There’s actually a study that looked at like really large carbohydrate and protein over feedings that saw some greater gains in lean body mass accumulation over, a nine week period.

Again, if you cherry pick your data, there is some stuff pointing in that direction. Insulin 

Mike: may play a role as well. If I remember, actually, I’m thinking back to Lyle’s explanation and he was also talking about just that if we’re talking. Muscle building and creating an anabolic environment, we generally will want insulin levels to be higher, 

Chris: not lower.

Yes, totally agree. And it’s gonna improve the amino acid uptake within the muscle, and I believe helps suppress 

Mike: muscle breakdown 

Chris: rates as well. Yes. Yeah. Or further prolong synthetic rate and or mitigate breakdown later on. Yeah. So you know, there are things that point in that direction where it can be advantageous to a certain.

And as far as post 

Mike: workout goes, what are, I guess you did summarize is there anything else you would add to or maybe just give people an idea of how important this is. Protein, it’s pretty clear. That’s important. You need to get that in sooner rather than later. If you didn’t eat before or maybe it had been hours before you trained and carbs, do you.

Consider that as important as protein or less? 

Chris: Or a lot less? Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t consider it as important as protein. There are so many factors that can change the magnitude of how important this is. So just a really quick example, if you were doing full body training quite regularly, like if that, if you are on a full body split, I would say.

Potentially more important. So let’s just say you trained full body today and you know you’re gonna train full body tomorrow. Getting in those carbohydrates to. Resynthesize, the muscle glycogen to make sure you’re ready for the next day. That’s gonna be more important compared to someone who’s doing like a bro split or a push pull legs.

Hey, you did legs today and you’re not gonna hit legs for another four to six days. You don’t need to worry about the muscle glycogen like filling up as quickly as possible because you’re gonna be eating for the next four to six days and it is going to be refilled by the next workout. So that can play a role.

And then if you ever. Two a days where maybe you’re doing cardio in the morning and training at night, or training in the morning, cardio at night, that makes the carbohydrate component of that post workout meal more and more important. Yep. 

Mike: And is there something special about that post workout, carbohydrate meal versus carbs Eaton?

Later or at other times in the day. Is Resynthesis more efficient at that time? Yeah, 

Chris: it is. So you are, slightly more sensitive to both glycogen, resynthesis as well as protein synthesis. So there is data showing that if you have protein by itself, you will basically get a. Very significant protein, synthetic response, but if you add carbohydrates to it, it can be slightly greater.

And then interestingly, if you had carbohydrates by itself compared to carbohydrates plus protein, the glycogen resynthesis is actually greater when it’s combined with protein. Which doesn’t make much sense to me from a mechanistic standpoint, but that’s what the data consistently shows is you’re actually resizing more glycogen when combining that postworkout meal with protein, which is, yeah, really odd, right?

If you have a hundred grams of carbs versus a hundred grams of carbs and 30 grams of protein, you’re gonna restore more glycogen when you had that protein there, even though you’re not necessarily using it for glycogen. So it’s quite interesting. Didn’t know that. Learned 

Mike: sos nice . I think that is enough context for carbs.

And as for the amount you may have already given this, but I don’t remember. So if you have, could you just give it again? How much carb do you recommend? 

Chris: It can be a little bit more than the pre, so I said one gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight. For pre, for post, it can be one gram up to 1.5 grams.

So for that 175 pound mail, it can be like 80 grams all the way up to 120 grams of carbs post. 

Mike: Man, it’s been so long since I’ve done that, but I think back to many years ago, I was working out with a good friend of mine at the time, and so we were doing body building, two hour bro split type workouts and we were in our twenties and invincible and just sit in the gym and just pound yourself with endless volume.

Not very efficient, but. Effective if you’re just willing to do it long enough, and so then we would go to this chicken place and eat probably some, So there’d be a pile of chicken, a pile of rice, so probably something similar to what you’re talking about. A lot of fat in there as well.

But I remember how good it would feel actually within. I don’t know, 30 minutes or so of finishing, it was almost like a slightly euphoric feel, and I haven’t felt that in a long time. Maybe that’s the consequence of aging, but also I haven’t eaten like that in a long time. I have just tended to move toward more simpler, just lower calorie, pre and post workout meals that don’t produce that extremely, It’s not just satiation.

Again there’s almost like a little bit of a food high or something, and particularly post workout. I wouldn’t experience that otherwise, if I just went at a random time and ate all that food, it’d be like, Oh, that was 

Chris: good. But not, it’s different for sure. It’s like your taste buzzer are heightened at that time or something.

But it’s also like sedative, like you had a long, tiring workout. You have this huge BOS of food. You’re like, All right, it’s time to lay on the couch. And really quick, like some of those quick to digest carbohydrate sources that I like consuming are usually things like a cereal, like a rice cereal.

Maybe something like cream of rice or then potentially something that’s a processed snack. So that can be anything like a pop tar or a rice crispy treat or something that’s just super easy to digest. And again, that varies. If you’re bulking and you’re having a hard time getting in all your food, then you want something that is not filling at all.

And then if you’re cutting, you’re gonna want something way more wholesome. So that can be like your white rice with broccoli and chicken just to make sure you’re staying fuller for a longer period. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And as far as fat goes, I’m assuming it’s, there’s no body comp or performance related reason, it’s just do it make sense for what you’re doing?

Like what? Like you mentioned, if you’re cutting and you want to stay fuller longer, you may want to throw some butter or some sort of oil or something in that rice and chicken and broccoli just to. Slow down the digestion a little bit. Yeah, 

Chris: for sure. Time of day, if this is the last meal of the day and you train that, 7:00 PM and you’re eating at 9:00 PM I’ll probably have more fats in there, but this is in the middle of the day or in the morning, it’ll probably be lower in fat and I’ll save my fats for something more delicious later on in the day.

Makes sense. And 

Mike: I guess supplements. I’m trying to think if there’s anything. Obviously you’d say, Sure, if you’re gonna take cine, you might as well take it after your workout, I would think. And not that it probably doesn’t make that big of a difference either way, but there’s some evidence that it might be slightly more effective then, 

Chris: right?

Yeah, for sure. Especially one combined with carbohydrate, Actually, I’d say that’s what a lot of the data suggests is, and it doesn’t have to be a carbohydrate supplement by any means, but hey, you’re having your post workout creatine, then you’re eating a post workout meal that’s pretty high in carb.

That’s probably just gonna. The likelihood of that creatine actually being stored in the muscle as fossil creatine. And that’s probably due to instantly mentioned the same way you mentioned insulin before having that anabolic, response. That’s probably slightly due to that. Yeah. Yeah, that makes 

Mike: sense.

And is there anything else that, regarding supplementation or anything, With post workout that you haven’t mentioned that you think you 

Chris: should? No that’s really it. Yeah. Getting that sufficient and that’s all I can think of. That’s all. 

Mike: We’ve covered everything on my little outline and more, so that’s great.

Chris: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Cool. 

Mike: If you don’t have anything else to add that’s still bouncing around in your head, I think we can just wrap it up here. This was great. A lot of good information. Yeah, for 

Chris: sure. One last thing I’ll. Just in regards to meal frequency, not necessarily like meal timing, we can briefly touch on, having fewer meals per day, larger, fewer meals per day can be more sat.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, let’s do that. 

Mike: Ironically, actually I’m looking, I’m like, Oh, that is in the outline. Yes, please. 

Chris: Yeah, for sure. A lot of people look at meal frequency in the context of dieting. So you go back multiple years, you still see this touted today where it’s like, Oh, you need to eat six meals per day.

And we know that’s not true by any means. We actually know that the more frequently you eat, the hungrier you’re going to be. So it can actually make dieting more challenging if you’re forcing yourself to have more meals just because someone. Said it was optimal, and when it’s not, which 

Mike: by the way is what happens, I’m sure it happens to you and it has happened to a lot of people.

That’s what happens to me. When I lean bulk. I’m generally hungrier, lean bulking than cutting. It’s not if I’m deep into a cut, but I’ve noticed that in the beginning of a lean bulk, until I reach the phase of getting sick, of eating at all, but for the first bit, I’m generally hungrier, like when I increase my calories than when I 

Chris: go into a cut

Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I actually eat more meals in my surplus and I eat less meals intentionally when I’m in my deficit to combat the hunger and also to improve my appetite cuz I have an issue getting in my. When I am bulking, so I actually do five to six meals when I’m in a surplus and I do four meals when I’m in a deficit.

But anyways, go 

Mike: ahead with the meal frequency point you were making. 

Chris: Yeah. So again, everyone always views it in the context of dieting and we understand that the more meals you eat, because you are going to be, that’s actually. Increase your appetite and make you hungrier, that can decrease your ability to adhere or your compliance.

So you need to find that sweet spot that works for you. And I think it’s important for people to experiment with a different amount of meals per day based on their schedule, their lifestyle, and their preferences. I really don’t recommend anyone ever having less than three protein feedings per day.

I do think that there is something there. There is an advantage to having multiple feedings compared to just one to two and getting an extremely large bolus of protein and calories like the intermittent fasting crew might do. But again, there’s no need to. To try to force yourself to get six meals in per day, if A, it’s not good for your lifestyle and your schedule.

And then B, it’s just making you hungrier and decreasing your compliance. So just something to think about. Yeah, that’s a good point. If, 

Mike: if there’s nothing else on meal frequency, I have nothing to add on that. I think you said it well, and that’s one of the more negotiable aspects of all of this.

Chris: For sure. Yeah, that’s really all I have. Generally speaking, just evenly distributing your protein feedings also makes sense in general. So have, a meal that’s 80 grams of protein and then another meal that’s only 20 grams of protein you’ll probably better off spreading that relatively evenly.

Nothing you need to nitpick and go crazy about, but it is definitely not good if you’re having like no protein in your breakfast and a huge bowl of protein in your. 

Mike: Probably something to be said for the timing too, right? It’d be silly to eat. Let’s say you are, you’re just eating 40 grams per serve and you keep it simple, 40 or 50 if it’s all food, whatever.

And then let’s say you have one serving and then two hours later you have another serving and then you wait six hours to have the third serving. You might be better off trying to put a couple of hours in between 

Chris: each. Would you agree? Yeah, for sure. For sure. And if you’re eating too frequently and you’re having a large bowl of protein, You might be so satiated that getting in that next meal, if it’s too close from your previous meal, you’re not gonna even want to eat.

Or getting it down’s gonna be more difficult. So yeah, definitely experiment too with how much time in between meals is gonna be best for you. Great. 

Mike: Thanks again for. Taking the time, Chris, and let’s wrap up with where people can find you and your work, and if there are any specific new and exciting things or just interesting things of yours that you want them to know about, let’s let ’em know.

Chris: Awesome. Thanks Mike. I really appreciate it. Yeah, you guys can find me primarily on, on Instagram for just up to date or most recent updates on myself, my journey and educational content. But you can also go over to school of gaines.com. That’s Gaines with a z. It’s a little bit more an. So there science fact, hashtag science.

Yeah, that’s the site where you’ll find a lot of my research publications, a lot of free articles and resources, some training programs, nutrition programs and stuff like that, as well as coaching on there. That’s really it, guys. I’m working on a lot of cool things at the University of Tampa right now with different research projects that are in the works, so I’m excited to share that as time goes.

The work gets done. So yeah, just stay tuned. I really appreciate you having me on, Mike, and I hope you guys enjoyed the episode and learned something cool today. Yeah, I look forward to the next one. Thanks. 

Mike: All right. That’s it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it and found it interesting and helpful.

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And that’s it. Thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon.