Ep. #1039: Marianna Moore on Gut Health, Bloating, Gut-Brain Connection, and More

Mike: Hey, hello. I’m Mike Matthews and this is Muscle for Life. Thank you for joining me today to learn about gut health and how it relates to bloating, which is what many people think of when they hear gut health. They immediately think of, if I’m bloated, I have bad gut health. If I’m not bloated, I have good gut health.

And as you will learn in this episode, it is not that simple. You are also going to learn about the gut-brain connection. You have probably heard at least a little bit about that, that what goes on in our gut affects our brain and vice versa. And that’s true, but you might not know just how true that is and how many different ways our gut affects our brain and our.

Affects our gut and how all of that affects our mental health and mental wellbeing. And in this episode, you are not going to be hearing much from me. Instead, you are going to be hearing from my guest, Mariana Moore, who offers practical tips on how to influence your gut health. This is what she studied in school.

This is her passion, and she knows a lot more about it than me, which is why I wanted her to come on the show and explain things in better detail, in more detail than I can. And as you will learn in this episode, gut health is a lot more complicated than many people, especially people on social media would have you believe.

But there are very simple things that you can do right now to improve your gut health. Or if you have. Gut health just to make sure that you continue to have great gut health. And in case you are not familiar with Marianna, she has a master’s in nutrition and she focused on gut health in her education and she has a a pretty big following on social media.

She regularly posts a lot of healthy recipes and meal prepping tips over on Instagram as well as educational fitness and gut health content on TikTok. And she also has a podcast. She is the co-host of the fitness stuff podcast along with Tony Coffee, who I also recently had on the show. So if you are interested in learning about gut health, if you want to know how to determine whether you have good gut health or bad gut health and what to do to improve your gut health, then I think you are going to like this episode.

Hello, Mariana. Hello. Thank you for taking the time to come on my podcast. 

Marianna: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I’m excited for the conversation. Something that I haven’t spoken too much about. I did write something and, and I think I used it kind of as an outline for a podcast on gut health years ago and gut health.

A lot of people are talking about gut health on social media. It is used to sell a lot of supplements. It almost has become synonymous or, or it has become yoked to bloating that like, if you’re bloated, you must have poor gut health. And if you take this supplement, whether it’s a green drink or a probiotic, then you are not going to be bloated, and that means you have good gut health.

So of course, I want to get into that. And also the connection between gut health and mental health, which is also mental health is a topic that more and more people are talking about and caring about. So, so I thought that would be good to get your thoughts on, on that as well as, as a, as well as a few other things that we have kind of on our outline.

So thanks again for taking the time to do this. 

Marianna: Oh yeah. I think this is a topic that a lot of people are interested in and I don’t really see it that stopping anytime soon. So hopefully we can answer some questions, especially as 

Mike: more and more research is being done. And then, you know, you have that cycle of, okay, an interesting study comes out and then the media picks up on it, often sensationalizes it in some way or misinterprets it, not always but often, but it drives the discussion and then of course that then sends people to the internet to start searching for information.

And yeah, I think that, that, that cycle is, is accelerating, at least from what I’ve seen over the last couple of years. And it probably will continue for the, at least the, the near future. 

Marianna: Oh, absolutely. I agree. And I mean, I think that, Whole idea of using bloating now as this marketing tool for a lot of companies to sell, because I mean, people don’t wanna be bloated and there’s become this like overwhelming obsession with that, especially on social media.

And so it’s interesting how you will see a lot of companies take off for the same reasons. It’s one of those things that people don’t really question it and it’s like, hmm, you know, this is such a complex topic, but it doesn’t seem to be something that consumers are aware of, which is, has always interested me and is why I talk about it a lot on social media as well.

So. You 

Mike: know, it’s funny with the bloating thing sometimes yes, we get bloated, but many instances of, of so-called bloating that, that I’ve seen online doesn’t really look like bloat to me. It just looks like body fat. So even some of that is kind of like really what we’re, what we’re talking about is somebody who isn’t even bloated per se, just has more body fat than maybe they’re comfortable with.

And so to even then be sold on, oh no, that’s bloat. And you just have to now spend the next six months trying to optimize your gut health, eating certain foods, taking certain supplements to try to beat that bloat, it sets them up for failure and frustration because, It’s not bloating, it’s just body fat.

A calorie deficit will get rid of what you think is bloating. 

Marianna: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. And I feel like there’s a line between, there are people who really, really struggle with this, who have chronic diseases that you say bloating and you can have someone present themselves and they look seven months pregnant and it’s debilitating and it ruins people’s lives.

And then you get people who maybe are just a little bit overweight or just ate and have a little bit of a food baby, or it’s that time of the month and you’re a little bit loaded and you freak out about it. Like there’s a lot of different ends of the spectrum. So it’s like, where do you draw this line in terms of.

What should I really be focusing on here? What’s really important for 

Mike: me? That’s a good segue. Let’s talk about that. So maybe, maybe if you can start with, um, just, just to find what, what, what is gut health? Like, what does that mean? What are the elements of this? And then we can probably talk about what are some indications of good gut health, poor 

Marianna: gut health.

You know what? That is an overarching question that I think could be answered multiple different ways, depending how you look at it. But I would answer that going back to, you know, what I learned in school, studied nutritional biochemistry, really focused a lot on research on the gut microbiome. And when you look at diseases related to the gut microbiome or a lot of gut dysbiosis, that’s where you can kind of understand gut health.

So I like to talk on the other end of the spectrum when understanding it. So gut dysbiosis would be an imbalance of the good and the bad gut bacteria in your gut microbiome. So much so that it presents in different symptoms or diseases that may require you to rebuild some of the good gut bacteria, get rid of some of the bad gut bacteria as just one piece of the puzzle for whatever you’re experiencing.

So that’s kind of. Can be poor gut health. That presents itself in multiple different ways. But looking at gut health in general, looking at the other end of what’s, what’s good gut health be more so a balance of the good and the bad gut bacteria. You don’t really feel general GI distress, which could be just bloating or infrequent bowel movements or just discomfort frequently, but with no known underlying cause yet, um, you don’t experience those things and, um, you sometimes it’s defined as having a, also a diverse diet.

So that’s something that researchers use a lot in explaining what good gut health. Gut health is you need a diverse amount of different species in your gut microbiome. So eating a diverse diet can help translate into that. So it’s not this concrete of gut health, but I kind of like to explain both ends of the spectrum because it’s a lot more complex, I think, than people understand when you have millions of microbes living in there to help create this balance, that could be gut.

Mike: And when you say good and bad bacteria, what does that mean? Yeah, 

Marianna: so bad bacteria say you get a bacterial infection. In order to fight off that bacterial infection, you want to have some of that bacteria that may be bad that’s causing the illness already present within your gut or anywhere within your body, um, to be able to be familiar with it.

Tell your immune system, Hey, we know what this is, we can fight this off. We’re still gonna experience some of the symptoms because we usually don’t have this much of this bad bacteria. But we do have some of it to allow us to recognize it. It becomes familiar and. That’s kind of the relationship between our gut microbiome and when you’re talking about your immune system, how it could play a role there.

So that would be more so the bad bacteria. And then good bacteria would be like the bacteria that consumes fiber. So fiber, people talk about fiber a lot and it’s good for you. Why is it good for you? Well, it feeds the good gut bacteria and allows them to produce short chain fatty acids, which have a lot of anti-inflammatory compounds that they produce and contribute to a lot of the health benefits that are associated with eating fiber.

So that could be some of the good gut bacteria. Again, not all good gut bacteria eat fiber, but it’s important to have a balance of both. Good. And. 

Mike: And so I guess broadly speaking then, uh, good gut bacteria produce beneficial effects in the body and bad ones do not produce. Uh, they produce harmful effects and they’re always present to some degree.

But in a, in a healthy gut, there is not so much bad gut bacteria that you are aware of them basically that you have any symptoms. Your body is able to keep them under control, and I’m assuming we’re getting exposed to them just as an inevitable consequence of living and eating things, I’m assuming is.

Like there’s no way to get away from the bad gut bacteria. 

Marianna: Yeah. And you, and you really wouldn’t want to, um, especially because that can lead to some overgrowths of specific strains of bacteria when you kind of get that imbalance. So when a lot of people talk about maybe I B S, which is irritable bowel syndrome, it’s more so a lay term for a bunch of different symptoms you may experience without a known disease causing them.

And a lot of those symptoms could be due to even the overgrowth of some good or bad gut bacteria, because again, we’re trying to have that balance. But an overgrowth of one can produce some symptoms like bloating and gas. You would especially see that with the overgrowth of the bacteria that feeds off of.

Because one of the byproducts is gas when they consume fiber. So if you have an overgrowth of that bacteria, you may produce a lot more gas and have a little bit more discomfort after eating high fiber foods. So that is kind of thinking about getting back to that balance, that almost harmony, so to say, of having a balance of so many different species in there.

So, and I think that’s something that a lot of people kind of don’t really think about because. There is good with bad bacteria. 

Mike: That’s interesting. Yeah. It’s counterintuitive. Maybe. Maybe it’s, it sounds like it could be likened to, let’s say L D L C cholesterol where if you’re exposed to too much of it, the vasculature is, is exposed to too much, then there’s a lot of evidence that suggests that the risk of cardiovascular disease goes up.

But of course you do want some in your diet even, or even just taking it even a little bit simpler and say saturated fat. Yes, you want to have some saturated fat in your diet, uh, but if you have too much, it becomes a problem. Sounds like a kind of a similar where you want to have, even though maybe there’s this simple label of.

bad applied to these bacteria. You, you do want a certain amount of these in your body. A and they, they provide a balance with the, the good that as a whole produces a healthy, functional, gastrointestinal, uh, system. 

Marianna: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t usually like to throw out adjectives, like good and bad, especially in like nutrition.

You know, it doesn’t really give you much, but this is one of the cases where you see that. So much because there’s just so many different names, strains that can Oh, you pronounce them and they’re just so long. Yeah. I mean, 

Mike: too much of the good becomes bad. I mean, you just explained right, , 

Marianna: try to keep it more basic there.

Mike: Yeah. So you really need the, the balance. So before we get into how do you create, let’s say, uh, how do you create good and bad gut health? Let’s talk a little bit more about bloating. It’s used again to sell different types of supplements very commonly it is, I see greens supplements probably the most common as like a quick fix.

One weird trick to banish bloating here, just drink this and use my code. And then probiotics as well. Prebiotics have been getting a lot of traction, uh, gaining a lot of traction over the last couple of years. Can you speak to those things? Yeah. 

Marianna: Yeah. So more so like the specific products that are often used in the gut health rhetoric nowadays.

Yeah, 

Mike: especially the bloating. And if we want to talk specifically about bloating, just because it’s such a hot topic, we could talk about, you mentioned a couple of causes, if there are other causes that are worth mentioning that are common, that could be helpful for people to know and then talk about addressing it.

We have things that are not going to work and, and then there are things that do work again, because it’s just so many people are looking to find information on gut health because of bloating or what they perceive as 

Marianna: bloating. Yeah. So I mean, in bloating can be due to so many different factors. So to kind of narrow it down, I like to.

Take away the people who you know, maybe have Crohn’s disease, maybe have diverticulitis, like they have a known GI disease. Those are when you can kind of separate those people, the cause is known and the treatment is very complex and not a GI doctor. So that’s not my realm to speak on, but what you think about in terms of this general lay bloating, you see a lot of it, people complaining about it on social media.

You know, I can’t eat anything without being bloated or I feel uncomfortable all the time, but I’m healthy. Like, what’s, what’s wrong with me on paper? I’m healthy. So that gets into these functional gastrointestinal disorders, which. Is again, another just lay term to describe a bunch of different signs and symptoms that you may have something going on with your gut to produce very similar symptoms that don’t have a known cause yet.

So it could be bloating, irregular, uh, bowel movements, which absolutely contributes to bloating if it’s on the end of very infrequent bowel movements, discomfort after meals. Maybe you notice that you’re bloating after you eat a meal every single time. Maybe you have pants that you can’t really put on and you notice that there’s a lot of distension.

Your stomach is hard, but you don’t know why. Which as a person who does myself have I b s and struggled with this for quite some time before I really started working through it, it can be debilitating. And so for those people, you know, when you. A greens powder can heal your gut. Take this bone broth and heal your gut.

Take this supplement and you’re gonna be cured. 

Mike: Leaky gut is often something, it’s something we, we should talk about. We can just set it aside for a minute, but that also is usually part of it, of the heal Your gut discussion. 

Marianna: Yeah. So a very big misconception that you’ll see with any of these products is they are used as a cure-all, and that’s like the number one red flag that if you wanna look out for one, A single product is claiming to cure or get rid of bloating, then that’s something you can just like immediately stop 

Mike: vigil.

I, you know, I, it tends to be, from what I’ve seen, more women than men. It’s probably just a hotter button issue with women. And so I’ll, I’ll often see women selling it like that. Like I was bloated and then I took this, and then I was no longer bloated, and now I take it every day and I’m 

Marianna: never bloated.

Yes. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And again, our gut is so complex, so many different factors could contribute to why you’re having unexplained bloating, discomfort. It could be stress. Your mental health, which I know we said we’d get into a bit later. Your diet, exercise, the environment that you’re in, your hormones, your genes.

There are so many factors and. A single product saying that this is the answer does not take that into consideration. It simplifies gut health, which is a topic that has been studied for decades now in vitro and animal studies, and it is just now starting to get to human studies because it is so complex everyone’s.

It’s different, the makeup is different, and that’s what makes it so difficult. So saying one product is gonna work for everyone is also something that is very hot that you can also look out for, because there are a lot of different individual factors that you have to take into account. And that part, that narrative is absolutely not told when it comes to trying to sell products.

Yeah. 

Mike: And, and sometimes people will then ask me, well, okay, fine. So, so you’re saying this person is lying. Maybe many people will lie for money. And, and many people will also lie even to themselves. So maybe they’ve convinced themselves that they’re, they were a little bit. More bloated or, or they noticed a little bit of bloating and then they started taking, and then, yeah.

Yeah, my stomach does feel a little bit, a little bit tighter. All right, great. And the checks don’t bounce. So this is a nice arrangement. Uh, it sounds, uh, kind of cynical for me to say it, but I’ve seen many instances of that. It’s one or the other, you know? Yes. They’re just blatantly lying to their followers sake of making money, or they first kind of lied to themselves, so then they didn’t feel like they were lying to their followers.

But in the end, it’s, they did not have some major problem with bloating that was resolved by some vegetable or powdered vegetables or fruit, like come. 

Marianna: Yeah, I see this a lot even in different topics, but when it comes to like health, illness or even weight loss, like I call it the lemon water effect because if you’re engaging in this new habit, whether that’s lemon water, whether it’s drinking your greens in the morning, what unconsciously did this new habit kind of cause you to do?

Did it cause you to engage in any other habits? Were you just not drinking water in the morning at all and you were kind of going through your morning a bit dehydrated, and now you have this greens powder that you have to have with a whole liter of water? Okay, now, Do you also want to have maybe a little bit of a healthier breakfast with that?

And maybe that’s causing you to just engage in habits that are maybe a bit better for you. And sometimes you can see that happen. Or are you the type of person that is already having the salad for lunch, the salmon and the green veggies for dinner and the fruit smoothie with protein for breakfast, and you wanna have a greens powder?

Are you the one that’s already GA engaging in these healthy behaviors and. The target audience for a lot of these companies because one probably afford it. And two, you’re already interested in health. So are you someone who even really needs it? So there’s a lot of things that I personally will think about, but there’s never a easy answer to if it’s just one item that you’re talking about, it’s never gonna be the easy way out.

It just isn’t. Especially with a complex topic. And for 

Mike: people who struggle with bloating and it’s not, it’s not just body fat and they don’t have a specific disease like Crohn’s or I b s, and it seems pretty mysterious. And let’s say they, they eat fairly well and they exercise, they do a lot of the things that you’re supposed to do, and they are often bloated.

They are often just feeling discomfort after eating even. Nutritious foods, is there a a flow chart of sorts that they can kind of work through to at least look into some of the more common reasons that otherwise healthy people who do healthy things can struggle? With regular bloating. You’ve mentioned some of the reasons why that that could be happening, but now what am I supposed to do about it?

Which of course is what many people ask me. Y you know, for example, an elimination diet. When is that appropriated? Should you just go to that right away, or should you try some other things first to find out what is going on with your gut and set up your diet and your lifestyle in a way that allows you to not be bloated all the time.

Marianna: Yeah, so I’m actually happy you brought up the elimination diet. I think that’s a good segue into this, but especially when it comes to trying to reach that good gut health, the diversity in your diet is so, so, so important. So especially if you are jumping right into. An elimination diet or cutting out whole foods.

Some people just completely, I, I know especially on the internet, you see people telling you to, to cut out legumes because they’re gonna make you gassy. So you shouldn’t eat any or to completely cut out dairy or to completely cut, cut out gluten instead of jumping or completely 

Mike: cut out everything but meat, which is a great place to start for an elimination diet.

But you’re not supposed to stay in the elimination phase forever. 

Marianna: They don’t tell you that. And that is what people don’t understand and that cuz there is elimination diets can be extremely effective when they are done under the guidance of someone who has been trained in how to. Properly administer them.

A lot of dieticians will help. A lot of nutritionists or kind of anyone who would have a focus in GI Health and has a little bit of a nutrition background can be really helpful for monitoring that because it’s supposed to be done in phases. You are supposed to slowly eliminate foods and slowly reintroduce them to see if you are sensitive to any of them in any cause distress, because sometimes it may just be a quantity thing.

So especially with with legumes, they can make people gassy. For some people it’s, you know, after a half cup. For some people it’s after a cup and those tiny nuances can really make a difference. But people don’t typically realize that cuz they’re not reintroducing foods and. Not having a diverse diet can really affect the balance of that good and bad gut bacteria.

So I typically will advise away from eliminating foods to be the first thing you do and typically will say, okay, so if this person is a bit more health conscious, maybe they’re already eating a pretty varied diet, which is what I would look at first, then maybe we could see how much fiber we’re eating in our diet.

Cuz some people will think, you know, yeah, I have like veggies at dinner and, and lunch, but are you eating enough veggies that are high in fiber and fruits? All right, let’s, let’s look at that. So there’s actually two ends of the spectrum. 

Mike: If you’re not eating any whole grains, like, you know, I’ve looked at these numbers myself, you can get there.

But in actual experience in my own diet, what I’ve found is that to. Enough fiber strictly through fruits and vegetables, which weights more heavily toward vegetables just because the calories can get outta control. I mean, you okay eat a bushel of bananas a day, but yeah, that’s 1500 calories of bananas or whatever, doesn’t exactly work.

And for me, and I would say that I, I basically never have GI issues. I never have stomach aches, never have bloating, never have anything. So even for me trying to do it through vegetables, it was too much. I would get gassy. I didn’t really particularly notice it as bloating, but certainly if I was getting gassy, then there was some bloating to come with it.

So it was upsetting my stomach to eat that much vegetables. And, and even, I, I noticed that in a, in one meal I had to, How much can I eat in one meal before it starts to upset my stomach? And by adding in some, I like oatmeal, so I just added in some oatmeal. I do. So it’s a cup dry, of course it’s cooked or I do it overnight, oat style, but I believe one half of a cup is, one is considered one serving of whole grains, if I remember correctly.

So, so I’m doing so just by adding two servings of, of whole grains, which boosts up. That fiber intake allowed me to bring my vegetable intake down to still, let’s say, four or five servings per day. It’s still a good amount, but coming down from like eight or nine, that allowed me to get enough fiber and my stomach issues were totally resolved and pooping was better.

And , which previously when my stomach’s upset and I’m just eating all these vegetables. So without whole grains it can it. Be difficult, uh, in my experience. Yeah. 

Marianna: Yeah. So that’s typically what I’ll recommend is leaning more into the whole, especially if you’re already more conscious of your fruit vegetable consumption is making sure you’re getting some whole grains.

And I’m happy you brought that up because there, and I will also get a lot of clients like this, especially those who maybe have some underlying issues with food and ha have deemed foods as off limits, really only eat the purest whole foods have a little bit of orthorexia and this is also a population eating disorder.

Populations are the highest groups of people with i b s and there are a few reasons while you’ll see this, but there’s the end of too much fiber can absolutely be a bad thing for your gut health because that again, the bacteria that feeds off of. Per the byproducts are gas. So if you are eating a large amount of veggies that are super high in fiber, uh, you, you’ll see people even eating over over 30 grams of fiber way above recommended.

And that can cause a lot of distress. And so maybe cutting a little bit back on the plant fiber, maybe transitioning into some whole grains. Even sometimes, especially if the fiber intake is, I’ll see a lot of women upwards into the 40 50 range. Let’s, let’s take this fiber down to 2025, add in some white rice, add in some plain potatoes instead of sweet potatoes.

Um, cuz they’re a lot easier to digest. And that can be really helpful for some people. And then going into the other end of the spectrum, if fiber is very difficult for you to get, Looking into a prebiotic supplement. So prebiotics are just plant fiber. And 

Mike: in what scenario would, practically speaking, would somebody need to take a prebiotic supplement as opposed to just eat some fruit, eat some vegetables, eat some whole grains?

Well, they refuse to . Like I 

Marianna: don’t do that. I look at that with just supplements in general. Right, right. I never really like to recommend a supplement first. If there are clear dietary interventions and decisions that you can make, but maybe sometimes someone who’s really busy, uh, maybe you are a mom, maybe you work in healthcare, maybe you don’t have much time during your day to, especially in the middle of the day, you’ll see this in with breakfast.

Have time to sit down. Eat a lunch, that typically higher fiber lunches sometimes can be higher in volume. Maybe you don’t have time. This might not be every day, but on some days, okay, maybe I’ll have a prebiotic supplement. Cuz I look at my diet as a whole and I’m only getting around five to 10 grams of fiber on this day.

So it’s not a guessing game. I, I don’t like to play that game when it comes to nutrition. Sit down, take a week, log your food, maybe take two weeks and look at on average what your fiber intake is because then it can tell you where to go and it can be really impactful. Maybe you learn, wow, I thought I was eating like 20 to 25 grams and I’m only eating.

Maybe 10, if I’m lucky, or it might be the other end of the spectrum. And that can be a really good starting point to see where I can make a practical interve intervention with fiber that’s logical within what I’m doing on a day-to-day basis. And then maybe I’ll consider prebiotics if I’m finding that diet, diet wise, this is hard for me to do every single day.

And 

how 

Mike: much fiber do you recommend? Uh, 20 to 25. Is that men and women? Uh, of all sizes? 

Marianna: Um, no. So for men it’s 30 to 35. And then women, I will typically say if you’re, you’re struggling, you’re eating a higher fiber diet to bring it down to that 20 to 25 range, but the recommendation is 25 to 30. So a little bit variation between men and women, but that’s the standard goal and it can be a much, much harder.

People think, I mean, we have so many public health interventions to try to increase fiber consumption even in the school system and with kids because of how it can prevent a lot of chronic diseases over time, especially when it comes to like cardiovascular disease and other GI diseases. But people can tend to underestimate how much they’re actually consuming.

So 

Mike: yeah. Yeah. What it takes to, I mean, to, to get there for, for people listening, you, you can go look around online and, and compare your diet against what you find, but I’ll say that unless you are a guy. Probably lean, bulking, eating a lot of food. If you are a guy or a gal who is either cutting or just maintaining, you’re probably gonna have to get 70 or 80% of your daily calories from relatively unprocessed and nutritious food.

So you can, you can take the protein out of that. So I can give you the fiber, but you know, your standard kind of flexible dieting 1 0 1, the majority of her calories is gonna have to come from nutritious stuff to get enough fiber. It just is, you’re not gonna be able to follow the old if it fits your macros.

And, you know, 60% of your daily calories are, are just highly processed. Food or or other junk and get enough fiber without taking a supplement. But you shouldn’t, as, as you mentioned, you shouldn’t assume that you can just take supplements to replace what you find in food. The rule is the opposite actually.

You should always try to get everything that you need from food and only add supplements if it’s, if it’s called for, right? 

Marianna: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And again, there can be a time and place for them, but if you are just skipping past the, what you’re looking at, what you’re doing from a nutrition standpoint, it’s very counterintuitive because you’re just feed, feeding yourself something covering up a habitual issue that you’re creating.

Um, especially when it comes to, you know, say if you’re just, yeah, I’ll just take a greens powder instead, you know, it has, it has fiber in it has prebiotics. Well, we digest a greens powder much differently than we digest. Broccoli digestion starts with chewing and not secreting. The digestive enzyme amylase can affect the bacteria that you secrete to also digest the fiber there and how quickly you absorb that liquid versus a solid food can also affect how much is actually your bacteria feeds off of.

So that’s also a component of, I hear all the time, you know, I can just take a supplement, supplement, I drink my greens. It’s so much easier. It’s very different with how our, our body sees that it’s also important. 

Mike: And there are other, there are other elements, right, co-factors, other things in food that there are a lot of things that scientists are still researching and even discovering that are present in food that are not present in powdered foods that are in their own.

Highly 

Marianna: processed . Ah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, just with gut health in general, like I really like that you brought up, scientists are still discovering, I mean, there’s still so much that scientists who dedicate their lives to researching this have no idea about, and a lot of these claims jump ahead of that.

And that is something that is just me personally, who’s someone who’s very invested in the research and making sure that I’m keeping up with it, especially in a topic that I studied a lot in school. Like it is crazy to me how easily a lot of companies are up able to, to get away with that. Um, and it’s okay to not know a lot about a topic, but it’s also one thing to be consciously deceptive of it, which you see a lot.

Mike: Unfortunately that that doesn’t make for a good sales pitch. We don’t really know much, but buy our, buy our green supplement . Yes. Yeah. And with fiber, something else that, um, that I know some people might be wondering about is, what about soluble versus insoluble? Because, you know, I’ve heard from people, they really start to look into fiber and intake and they really wanna optimize their diet and then they run into this, should I be managing these things separately?

If I just eat a good diet and get enough fiber, do it. I don’t have to worry about that. 

Marianna: Yeah. And, and so typically if you’re eating the recommended amount, you worrying about insoluble versus soluble fiber is, is not something you’re gonna have to do because a l there’s a lot of crossover between foods.

So some will contain both. There is, that is enough fiber for it to be broken down and like, oh, well what if I’m not getting any in solu soluble? That’d be really uncommon. If you’re eating 30 grams of fiber per day, you’d have to have 

Mike: a really weird 

Marianna: diet. Right? Yeah. Maybe if you’re doing, um, what’s his name?

The medical mediums only Celery juice. Celery is in soluble fiber. So maybe if you’re doing that, wouldn’t advise you to do that. 

Mike: Although if, although if it’s the juice, you’re not even getting the fiber. So you’d have to, if, if all, if you just, if all you do is you eat celery sticks and drink protein shakes, all right, probably other problems.

But this is one of your many problems. 

Marianna: basically. So in insoluble fiber quickly through your digestive system, so it promotes the movement of food through your digestive system. I can think of like stringy vegetables, like a celery or romaine lettuce. Um, berry watery vegetables, typically more insoluble fiber.

Soluble fiber is where you get a lot of the health benefits. So like I was mentioning, reducing your risk for heart disease, you reducing your risk for colon cancer, um, promoting good GI health, that’s where you get the soluble fiber. So what that does is it forms a viscous, like gel in your stomach. So it.

Slows digestion, it allows you to absorb a lot more of the nutrients. It allows you to also feed that good gut bacteria. That’s what soluble fiber does. Um, and it also is the fiber that people will talk about when you say it has a higher satiety index. So typically if someone is cutting in a deficit, eating more soluble fiber can help you feel a little bit fuller longer.

Um, it also slows the blood glucose spike after a meal. So those are, that’s the big difference there between soluble and insoluble. 

Mike: Do you want to transform your body but you just can’t seem to break out of the. Have you read books and articles, watched videos, listened to podcasts, but still just aren’t sure exactly how to put all the pieces together for you?

Or maybe you know what to do, but you’re still struggling to stay motivated and on track and do the things that you know you. Do Well if you are nodding your head, I understand getting into great shape is pretty straightforward when you know what to do, but it’s not easy. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes grit, and that’s why I created my v i p one-on-one coaching service.

We take people by the hand and we give them everything they need to build their best body ever. We give them a custom diet plan, training plan, supplementation plan. If they want supplements, you don’t have to take supplements. We coach them on how to do every exercise correctly. We give them emotional encouragement and support, accountability, and the rest of.

And we are pretty good at it too. We have worked with thousands of men and women of all ages and abilities and lifestyles and help them build a body they can be proud of. And guess what, we can probably do the same for you. Our service is not for everyone. But if you want to find out if it is right for you, if there is a fit, head on over to Muscle for life.show/vip.

That is Muscle, f o r Life show slash vip and book your free consultation call now. Uh, I think now we can segue over to Gut Health and Mental Health and what’s the connection there? Yeah, I’ll just, I’ll leave it at that. 

Marianna: Yeah. So, and this is, this was going to be um, another topic of interest. If you are kind of looking into though, why might I be experiencing this bloating, gas discomfort.

A large reason can be stress. A large reason can be if you do have some sort of mood disorder, um, like anxiety or depression. Um, so getting into why that is kind of answering your question a little bit. Our brain has a direct effect on the stomach and intestines. So there’s this bidirectional communication is called our brain gut connection, the gut brain axis.

And it’s communication between the central nervous system, which is in your brain and your enteric or intestinal nervous system. And this links your emotional and cognitive centers of the brain with your gut. And this is something that is very complex but explains a lot more of this GI distress that people experience without any real known cause.

And this has been a recent area of research that’s really. Evolving. This connection has been understood for decades in terms of this, the enteric nervous system and a person’s stomach or intestinal distress can be the cause or the product of anxiety, stress, depression. And this can where you see a lot of this constant bloating or constant pain, it feels chronic.

It just feels like it’s something you’re living with often. Um, so to understand it a little bit more, I like to explain. The enteric nervous system, cuz it’s not really spoken about much. And it’s really fascinating how it works in relation to our brain. But there’s two thin layers and there’s more than a hundred, a hundred million nerve cells lining your GI tract.

Um, and they rely on the same type of neurons, neurotransmitters that are found in your central nervous system. So they work very similarly. Um, that’s why it’s gotten the nickname your, your second brain, so the second brain in your gut. And it’s in constant communication with your brain. So, Where this really can relate to, you know, mental health, these mood disorders I was talking about is 90% of serotonin, which, um, has a nickname like Your Happy Hormone.

It’s a neurotransmitter and it plays a huge role in digestion and mood regulation, and it’s produced by gut bacteria. So 90% of it is found and produced in your gut, and the other 10% is in your brain. 

Mike: Most people would probably instinctively assume that’s the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. If, if 10% at all is even the other, probably assume a hundred percent is in the brain.

Marianna: Yeah. And with serotonin, that’s where a lot of you’ll see anti-anxiety O C D medication, um, will be treat. Almost a serotonin deficiency. So a lot of people with these mood disorders have low serotonin production, and that can be in your brain, it can also be in your gut. Um, again, much more is produced in your gut, um, but an imbalance in your gut bacteria.

Can heavily impact your serotonin production. So this can play a very important role in the pathogenesis of both emotional distress that i b s, irritable bowel syndrome, the development of mood disorders, or kind of how intensely you may experience them. Again, very complex anxiety depression, so it’s a small piece of the puzzle, but a lot of research is showing that the severity of your symptoms can be impacted by gut dysbiosis.

So that’s why you’ll see a lot of at least human studies when it comes to. Looking at this connection between the gut and the brain. Look at individuals with i b s and anxiety or depression, um, individuals with a mood disorder and how maybe pro and prebiotics are going to help improve how they experience their SY symptoms.

So again, special populations, but this connection can be really impactful for a good intervention for improving the amount of symptoms that you experience or the effect to which you experience them. So I find that very fascinating. . 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting. By maintaining a healthy gut, I suppose then you, you make yourself more resistant to depression, anxiety, and other issues.

You, you may still experience them depending on many other things, but by maintaining a healthy gut, it sounds like you are going to be less likely to experience those things. And if you do experience them, they, they won’t be as severe as they would be otherwise. 

Marianna: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then another piece to this, um, is the stress piece.

So especially in America, we live in a society that is very high stress cortisol levels. You know, if we routinely check them, which we probably don’t, but cortisol is typically very high in an American who maybe is just going to work nine to five, maybe doesn’t like their job, maybe overworked, doesn’t move much, maybe eats a standard American diet.

You know, looking into, well, how is that affecting? Or maybe just someone who does just experiences high stress on a day-to-day. 

Mike: Which could be a double whammy, right? Because those things you just mentioned are part of the recipe. Like if you want to make yourself depressed, then yes, work, uh, in a job that you hate with people that you hate.

And people who hate you. Don’t exercise, eat terrible food, don’t get enough sleep, drink too much. I alcohol, do all these things and everybody will end up depressed at some point. It’s impossible to not get depressed if you, if you the, the environment that is designed to produce it. And so when you, when then you.

You already have somebody who is going to be, if they are moving in that direction, prone to it, right? And then, and then you exacerbate it with poor gut health. They’re just gonna get there faster. 

Marianna: Yeah. I like, I like that you brought that up. I want to flip the coin and then for the example I’m going to give, give you the under other end of the spectrum.

So maybe looking at your type A person, right? Thinking about, and this is, these are a lot of characteristics you’ll see in someone with needing disorder. This connection is also heavily studied in those with anorexia nervosa. People who undereat do not eat enough calories. So a type A person, really, really hyper-focused on what they put in their mouth, how much they put into their mouth, you know how much they’re moving.

Leans towards the end of, you know, the distress is perfectionism surrounding diet health. You see this a lot in academics or in your job and. That can also affect how you digest food. So you are in this constant state of fight or flight. When cortisol is extremely high and chronically elevated, you are experiencing a level of fight or flight on a day-to-day basis when you don’t need to be experiencing it.

And when our body goes into fight or flight mode, that’s say if you’re in danger. So if you are, I like to give an example, if you’re trying to run from a bear, you’re not gonna be prioritizing digestion. So what happens is, you know, digestion slows and we’re not putting much energy towards our GI system and the functioning of our GI system cuz we’re trying to get out of here.

We’re in danger. 

Mike: Even blood flow is 

Marianna: diverted, right? Yes. So individuals with. Chronically elevated cortisol and are in a constant state of fight or flight. Digesting food is more difficult because you’re not in a state of the, the other end is rest and digest. Those names are used for a reason, so being in that more relaxed, calm state is optimal for digestion.

So this can even be, I know I said two extremes of individuals here, but this can even be for a person. Is often stressed at their job and they go to sit down and eat a meal and they’re chronically stressed. So maybe they’re just not optimally digesting their food and that could be why they’re experiencing a lot of bloating after a meal without any other known cause.

So that is also a factor that is interesting, but also that’s where a lot of more interventions are starting to evolve in terms of, you know, breath work before meals. Kind of switching that fight or flight to rest and digest state so that you’re more relaxed before you’re eating, doing more yoga, implementing some lower low intensity exercise or some sort of mental health practice that allows you to know how to put yourself into a state of rest and digest.

Being calm and feeling like you have control over that. Cause we so often mindlessly go through life, especially in the US society being. Chronically stressed without doing much about it. 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, I can speak to that personally. So something that has helped me is making sure that I’m doing some things on a semi-regular basis that are fun, is really just for the sake of having fun that’s not connected to some sort of work goal or even necessarily a personal goal unless the activity is, is just fun in and of itself.

Uh, take think of people. Okay, if you take up a sport and you’re playing it as a hobby and you really enjoy playing it, uh, then it’s fine to have some goals. But me being a, a more type A person, if I were to take that to an extreme, then it becomes less fun because I’m so focused on the goal of achieving some level of a, of, uh, performance in tennis or whatever.

And then I’m not really having fun anymore because, Often if your goal is a very high level of performance, you have to kind of do a lot of things that aren’t very fun. Like you gotta practice your just one stroke a thousand times a week or something. And, and that, that, that’s not very fun. Even though eventually if you can get so good and you’re playing at a high level, that can be fun.

But just, just making sure that I am doing things that are fun. And for, for a long time, I, I didn’t, I just totally neglected that because I was so focused on work and outside of work, I have obligations. I have two kids and, uh, a wife and, and you know that those, those relationships. Of course can be conducive to fun, but you have to go do fun things together.

There’s the, the logistics of having a family are not necessarily fun the the time that you have to put into just random things to like keep a house running and stuff. And so, you know, just, just, just commenting that, that has helped me just be able to balance the, the stress of a lot of work and businesses.

And there are a lot of people and I, I’m not maybe prone to being overstressed or anxious, but we all have a limit and I personally kind of found my limit and how it started to express it. Itself in my life was primarily so in my sleep. So I just started to sleep worse and worse over time. And I would wake up multiple times at night, sometimes have trouble falling back asleep.

Um, so turning into like a form of insomnia and, and just kind of losing the joy of kind of everyday living and not really looking forward to very much, you know, symptoms of mild depression actually, which I didn’t really realize being kind of irritated and it was totally, uh, my own doing. And when I realized that and was like, okay, so then why don’t I just do a little bit less of this stuff over here that just causes stress and let’s, let’s spend some time doing things that are fun, which.

For me, it’s more effective to counterbalance the negative effects of, of too much stress than just relaxing for whatever reason, like actually doing things that, that are exciting and fun, works better for me than just chilling or hanging out or whatever. So, um, for whatever that’s worth for people listening, that, that’s been helpful for, for me because it was getting kind of unsustainable where I was like, uh, I’m not sure exactly what’s going on, but this is getting pretty obnoxious, you know?

Marianna: Yeah. I mean, I. Would even put like stress management when, you know, you’re talking about ways to improve your gut health, stress management next to diet. Yeah, 

Mike: but see, I tried the normal things. Okay, relax. You do breath work, you do meditation. And what worked for me is do things that are fun. Make sure that and, and meditating for me is not fun.

Like, you know, I can do it. I’m not bad at it, but I don’t, I’m not like, oh yeah, I’m so excited to do my 10 minutes of breath work. I would probably liken it to, to stretching. I do a little bit of stretching every day. I don’t look forward to the stretching. I don’t dread the stretching, I just do it. But it’s not fun, you know?

Yeah. 

Marianna: And I think that’s what people con like with stress management, like fun is something I would first think of. Many 

Mike: people know though, not adults, not here in America. Fun is for kids. Like when you’re an adult, everything is serious. You have to be spending every minute of every day working hard towards some sort of goal.

And, uh, you should, you should be working on your career at least 60 hours a week. And, and, and, 

Marianna: yeah. So if you’re gonna look at like priorities and that’s not something you’re also prioritizing next to diet. Definitely something to look into that you can have active control over. And again, that’s not just, you know, waking up and meditating every day, or journaling or getting in touch with your spiritual side.

It’s living life a bit lighter because it doesn’t, you don’t always have to feel that constant heaviness and stress something that’s going to take you away from what you’re constantly stressed and worried about that you genuinely enjoy. Because I also think people, oftentimes when you’re stuck into that day-to-day routine, you hate, you forget that.

So 

Mike: yeah, I actually had to, had to. Like, think about it a little bit. What do, what do I like to do just for the sake of doing it? And I wasn’t even sure cause it had been so long since I gave that any importance. It was, it was mostly just what do I need to do? What should I do? Like what’s the rational thing to do, uh, strategic thing to do, to achieve a goal?

And again, all that’s fine. But in my experience, too much of that made, made life kind of, kind of boring. And again, I didn’t, I found myself not looking forward to much anymore and just kind of going through the motions. It was, uh, interesting, interesting for me to experience kind of new, because again, that’s not in, in the past when I was younger, I guess I, I, I did prioritize fun more and so I never had the problem

Marianna: Yeah. And the way that that can affect your digestion is something that goes. So far past people’s heads because you’re constantly focusing on, well, did I drink the greens? You know, did I have enough fiber? Did I do all the things that are so healthy for me? What about the health of, of your, your brain, your, your mental health?

And stop neglecting that. And there’s also the connection that our brain and our gut have is so sound. And that research is only evolving. And that is something you can start implementing tomorrow. Sit down and start thinking about things that used to bring you joy that you don’t do anymore. It can go a really long way, especially when you look at the populations of people who have the highest rates of ibs.

Those with eating disorders, those with anxiety, those with depression. Um, your inner child can do a lot for you. . 

Mike: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting too that, um, so you can have somebody who. Is, uh, orthorexic to some degree, and that can lead to even worse. So, so they’re already, let’s say they’re eating too much fiber because they’re so focused on what they eat, and you add the stress on top of it, that they’re stressed about what they’re eating.

And if they’re eating, I mean, it’s calories, it’s macros, it’s food choices. And then you have the added stresses of, of life, and then they’re having GI issues. And that can lead to even more stress of trying to figure out, okay, maybe they need to, to add even different foods or different supplements. Uh, so, uh, just, just given that this is a fitness podcast and a lot of people that are very into fitness, I just, I just wanted.

Really repeat that message that there is a point where you can take this stuff too far and start causing problems that you would otherwise not have. 

Marianna: Yeah. Yeah. I think, and also as someone who’s had experienced that firsthand, a lot of people fall into that and have no idea. And you’ll see a lot of, especially, especially especially women, are so pronounced in this anti bloating and this obsession with curing your bloating and you see a lot of people, more so in the fitness space, people who are already healthy.

It’s like, well, you say you’re doing really. Good things for your body, but in a way is this starting to lean into something that could become an obsession, could become too much. Again, that doesn’t happen to everyone, but it happens to a lot of 

Mike: people. It also can probably happen in degrees, right? You have some people who the volume is way up, but then other people, maybe it’s only a two out of 10, but they’re starting to experience some issues.

What I described with me was probably like that, where it wasn’t, it wasn’t extreme, but it was enough that I was noticing that something was wrong and it shouldn’t be like this. It wasn’t like this. What’s going on? So if though somebody keeps doing what they’re doing that’s causing the issue and starts doubling or tripling down, then it can really become a big problem.

Yeah. Definit. Can we talk quickly before we wrap up on some, if there are any other specific tips that you have for people for improving gut health? You’ve mentioned, for example, a diverse diet. Maybe some people are wondering what does that mean exactly? Is it just eat some fruits and vegetables and whole grains or is there more advice as to choices?

Um, we’ve mentioned green supplements are, I mean, if it’s powdered fruits and vegetables, I don’t see the connection at all. Just eat your fruits and vegetables. But what about probiotics? Are those ever indicated and why? And any other things that, you know, people could think about, just start doing right away to improve 

Marianna: their gut health?

Varied diet. A diverse diet is again, of course the fruits, vegetables, hold grains, but also the proteins, you know, getting. This may be controversial of me, but getting some animal protein in there, getting some dairy if you’re not lactose intolerant. Um, but you can even still get dairy if you’re lactose intolerant.

There’s a lot of low lactose dairy products in lactose-free dairy products. Having a lot of color on your plate can also be a good guide. A lot of people get stuck into eating the same thing over and over again, which can serve a, a good time and place, but really thinking about, you know, am I getting. A different amount, a different type of the larger food groups.

And again, there’s dietary restrictions. People have those and there’s still ways to make sure that what you’re eating is, is varied. I mean, even if you are vegan and making sure you’re combining different types of plant proteins to make a complete protein. But that’s kind of what I would say think of when you’re thinking of a very diet.

Do I eat the same thing all the time? Yeah. I like vegetables, but I actually really only eat broccoli and green beans, um, which is one color. So thinking in color can be pretty helpful too. And then I would say the next. Stress management, we talked about. Next thing could be considering probiotics.

Probiotics. Again, no supplement is going to completely fix anything. Probiotics, there’s so many different strains, so many different species of bacteria that. Take a few to find out one that may just provide a little bit of relief 

Mike: and, and making sure that you understand that point that, that you just made, that there are very different strains and, and if you are looking at the research used to support a probiotic supplement, that the research is on the exact strain or strains that are in the supplement.

And I went through this whole process cuz Legion has a, a probiotic. And of course we are very specific about the strains that we chose because of the research on those exact strains. But there are many probiotics out there that will cite research on different strains, even though might be in the same family, so to speak.

And so a, a less educated consumer might not pick that up and think that the research on. Strain, a so to speak, applies to strain B because they sound kind of the same and that’s not the case, right? Or not necessarily the case. You can’t, you, you can’t just assume because, oh, well it, it had these effects in this similar strain, so it’s probably gonna do the same 

Marianna: thing.

Yeah. So that’s very important. Um, and probiotics is what you’ll, you can do, they add in, you know, the microorganisms specific strains of bacteria. Maybe you may be lacking or your symptoms are showing that you may be lacking, or they could just be to help maintain good gut bacteria. But again, it’s really important to make sure that the specific strain is correct for your need.

And then there’s also foods with probiotics, but a few things to look out for too, especially with probiotics that just quickly come to mind is a kombu. So thinking about shipping and handling, so like shipping and handling, do you think that those microorganisms are still alive once they get to your mouth?

After going through the process of shipping and handling, losing refrigeration 

Mike: after being vigorously shaken for who knows how many hours o over the course of it could, it could have been produced six months ago and it’s been shipped all over the place 

Marianna: and yeah. Yeah. And then the next piece also to consider if, if it’s a supplement, thinking about, and again, this is gonna have to come more so from transparency, I think from companies, but is the capsule, the capsule that the probiotic in, how is that made?

Is, does it allow for the strain to survive stomach acid? Is the capsule protecting the bacteria from stomach acid before it gets to your intestines? And I know that I’ve, I’ve personally seen more companies kind of talk about that. Some, it’s becoming a bit more standard practice with different, I guess, different.

Manufacturers, um, will be open about that, but that can be something to consider. And also usually looking at supplement companies, are they educated on the different types of strain? Can you kind of go somewhere on their website and learn a little bit more? And Legion does a great job at doing that. So that’s also something to consider.

Mike: Yeah. And that, and any, any, um, any other thoughts on other fermented foods people ask about kimchi and some of these other things? 

Marianna: Yeah, so I would say like, again, it’s hard to say. So with like yogurt, yogurt has probiotics, it’s hard to say how much, um, and whether or not those probiotics are still alive from the time that they reach your intestines.

But there are. I’d say the fermented food. So like if you’re making your own kimchi, that’s where you would probably see more live bacteria. But again, the shipping process, it’s, it’s tough to know. It’s still kind of an area where it’s not required to determine that, um, for those companies. So, and 

Mike: if it would cost more money to preserve the bacteria, they’re not gonna do that.

Marianna: Yeah. So I would say like recommend, if that’s something, what you’re really looking for, kind of your best bet could be to, to get something locally or try to look into making it yourself. 

Mike: Yeah, yeah. Or I asked you, you could kind of liken this to, to fish oil. Like a fish oil supplement. Do you need to take one?

No, no. If you are, are willing to eat enough of the right kind of fish, you’ll can get at least enough omega-3 S to maintain. Health if you wanted to, to reach higher amounts, maybe for benefits of reduced inflammation in your joints, for example, probably gonna be kind of hard to eat to get there with fish alone.

And so supplementation that, that’s an example where a supplement can, can make sense. And it, it sounds like a similar case could be made for a high quality probiotic supplement. 

Marianna: Oh, absolutely. I, I completely agree. 

Mike: Like there are some things that’s just, it’s just very impractical to get everything that you would want from it in just, just with food.

Okay. Awesome. Well, um, that’s all I had for you, uh, in this interview. Is there anything else that, um, you wanted to say before we wrap up here? 

Marianna: No, I, I think that’s it. Just really kind of, if anything that you can take away is, it’s just not, our gut is not that simple. So there could be a few things you try, some things may not work, it’s not this one and done easy fix.

So if that’s something that can guide you, um, that you take away from this, I think you’ll be in a good starting point. 

Mike: Yeah, and you shared a lot of, uh, great practical tips people can put into use right away to attack this from different angles, so to speak. So again, thank you for your time and let, let’s just finish with where people can find you, find your work, anything specifically you want them to know about.

Marianna: Yeah, so on social media, I’m Mariana’s Pantry, so Mariana’s underscore Pantry, that’s on Instagram. And TikTok. TikTok, I definitely discuss a lot of gut health things. Instagram, I have a lot of recipes, and then I also co-host a podcast fitness stuff for normal people. We talk about a lot of different topics and it’s a good basic learning point if you wanna learn about foundation of fitness, health, nutrition, and.

Mike: Okay, perfect. Well, thanks again, Mariana. I really appreciate it. 

Marianna: Thank you so much. 

Mike: Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did subscribe to the show because it makes sure that you don’t miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you.

And if you didn’t like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if you have, uh, ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email, mike muscle for life.com, muscle f o r life.com, and let me know what I could do better or just, uh, what your thoughts are about maybe what you’d like to see me do in the future.

I read everything myself. I’m always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon.