Ep. #1187: Dr. Robert Waldinger on Happiness Lessons from Harvard Research

Robert Waldinger: [00:00:00] The best theory we have has to do with stress, that good relationships actually are stress relievers. Like, if you think about it, if you have something really upsetting happen, you can feel your body rev up, you know, your heart rate revs up, your breathing gets faster. You might start to sweat. That’s all normal.

Robert Waldinger: That’s the fight-or-flight response. It’s meant to go back to normal, you know, back to baseline when the threat is removed. And I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but sometimes I’ll have a really upsetting day, and I’ll come home and complain about it to my partner, and it’s like, I can literally feel my body calm down.

Robert Waldinger: If you have somebody at home or somebody you can call or somebody in the next cubicle that you can complain to, you can feel that stress recede. And we believe that that’s an important part of what keeps us healthy. We need help getting back to baseline.

Mike Matthews: Hello, and welcome to a new episode of Muscle for Life. I am your host, Mike Matthews.

Mike Matthews: Thank you for joining me today for an interview with Dr. Robert Waldinger on the art and science of living a long, healthy, and happy—emphasis on happy—life.

Mike Matthews: This is something that Dr. Waldinger has special insight into because he is the director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, and he explains what that study is and why it is so interesting at the beginning of this interview.

Mike Matthews: And he is the author of the book The Good Life, where he explores some of the key learnings that he has taken away from his work at Harvard studying human, specifically adult, happiness.

Mike Matthews: Now, in this interview, Dr. Waldinger is going to talk about why relationships are the most important predictor of happiness and [00:02:00] longevity.

Mike Matthews: He’s going to talk about what he calls social fitness and why it’s important to build and maintain social fitness.

Mike Matthews: How to identify and address signs of loneliness, how to make new friends, how to deepen existing connections, and more.

Mike Matthews: Before we start today’s episode, I need to tell you about the multivitamin that I take every day.

Mike Matthews: It is called Triumph, and it is from my sports nutrition company, Legion.

Mike Matthews: And why do I take it every day? Well, because it is the only sport multivitamin on the market with clinically effective doses of 20 essential vitamins and minerals, as well as 10 ingredients scientifically shown to improve health, performance, and mood, and reduce stress, fatigue, and anxiety.

Mike Matthews: And those 10 ingredients include some popular ones that you don’t normally find in a multivitamin because they are expensive, like KSM-66 Ashwagandha root extract, which is scientifically shown to increase physical performance, reduce stress, enhance sleep quality, support immune function, and more. Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which is scientifically shown to support heart health, maintain healthy inflammation levels, and more. Nigella Sativa, which is scientifically shown to improve mood, cognition, and well-being.

Mike Matthews: And again, those are just three of the ten additional scientifically backed ingredients that you will find in Triumph, which you don’t usually find in a multivitamin.

Mike Matthews: And what’s more, 57 peer-reviewed scientific studies support Triumph’s combination of ingredients and doses—that is 481 pages of scientific research that shows Triumph works exactly as advertised.

Mike Matthews: Triumph contains no artificial food dyes, fillers, or other unnecessary junk.

Mike Matthews: Every bottle is analyzed for purity and potency in a state-of-the-art ISO 17025 accredited lab.

Mike Matthews: Triumph has a clean and transparent label that shows you exactly what is in every serving—and what is not. No proprietary blends, no hidden ingredients.

Mike Matthews: And finally, Triumph is made in the USA with globally sourced ingredients in NSF-certified and FDA-inspected facilities that adhere to current Good Manufacturing Practices (cGMP) standards.

Mike Matthews: So if you want to give Triumph a try, you can get 20% off your first order of it and anything else you might want to buy in Legion’s store by going to buylegion.com/triumph and using the coupon code MUSCLE at checkout.

Mike Matthews: And if, heaven forbid, you don’t like Triumph, or whatever else you buy from us, simply let us know, and we will just give you your money back. You don’t even have to send the product back to us.

Mike Matthews: So again, go to buylegion.com/triumph now, try Triumph risk-free, and while it cannot transform your health or turbocharge your metabolism, it can plug any nutritional holes in your diet and enhance your fitness, vitality, and well-being.

Mike Matthews: Hey Bob, thank you for taking the time to do this.

Robert Waldinger: I’m glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Mike Matthews: Yeah, this is scratching an itch of mine. It’s a talk I’ve been looking forward to just because it’s a topic that I’m interested in, and a lot of people listening, I’m sure, are interested in—how to live a better life, how to achieve more satisfaction in life, how to achieve more happiness, how to derive more meaning out of life. And of course, that’s what we’re here to talk about.

Mike Matthews: I thought a good place to start would be if you could just give people a little bit of context around this Harvard Study of Adult Development. And then from there, I would love to get into some of the details that you talk about, particularly in your book, The Good Life, which is based on all this work that you’ve been doing in this research study.

Robert Waldinger: Sure. So this study, the Harvard Study of Adult Development, is the longest study of the same people going through their entire lives—the longest study that’s ever been done. We started in 1938, 86 years ago, 87 years ago. I’m the fourth director, and we have followed the same people and their spouses and their children all the way to the present time. No study has ever done that before.

Robert Waldinger: And so what we get to see is how lives unfold, you know, from the time these people were teenagers and then what their kids’ lives are like.

Robert Waldinger: We started with 724 young men. About a third of them were Harvard College undergraduates, sophomores, chosen by their deans to be fine, upstanding specimens. They were meant to be a study of normal development from adolescence to young adulthood.

Robert Waldinger: Now, of course, we laugh when we think about studying Harvard guys as typical people to study for adolescent to young adult development. But at that time, that’s what they chose—all white guys.

Robert Waldinger: The other group, about two-thirds, were from Boston’s poorest neighborhoods and from some of the most troubled families—families known to social service agencies because there was domestic violence, parental mental illness, family illness, physical illness. These were kids who had so many strikes against them.

Robert Waldinger: The question was also about how kids develop normally. How do kids who are supposed to have things go badly for them end up doing well? And many of them did.

Robert Waldinger: So in both cases, they were groups that we wanted to study to see what can go right in human development.

Robert Waldinger: Then we added women, we added spouses, we added the second generation. Everybody in the original group was white, so we spend a lot of time tracking what other studies of more diverse groups say.

Robert Waldinger: I don’t talk about findings that haven’t been corroborated by studies of people of color, for example, or studies in other cultures. We don’t want to just put out findings that are specific to white people and say, “Oh, yeah, that’s how everybody lives.” So we’ve been really careful about that.

Mike Matthews: That point of getting to first principles, basically, of human psychology makes sense to where it transcends racial barriers. But I’m just curious, in all of the data that has been reviewed, have there been some cultural differences that have stood out to you that seem to matter or be more important for one race or ethnicity versus another?

Robert Waldinger: Yeah. Well, it’s a great question. Some cultural differences—well, we haven’t studied African American groups, but African Americans living in the United States have to live with all this discrimination all day long. They have to worry about whether it’s safe to be where they are.

Robert Waldinger: Parents talk about having to have that discussion with their sons, particularly, about how they could get stopped by the police and how it could end in something terrible—something that white parents don’t have to do. So, yes, that’s a big difference.

Robert Waldinger: Other things that are different—for example, in Latino communities, in many families, it’s the norm to live at home until you get married. Often, large families live together even after the kids get married.

Robert Waldinger: In white families, the norm is to leave home, although that’s a little less so now.

Robert Waldinger: But all that is to say there are some of these big cultural differences that we want to be sure to pay attention to when we’re talking about how life proceeds for most people.

Mike Matthews: In your book, you talk about social fitness, and I made a note of that because a lot of people listening are used to hearing me talk about physical fitness and health. So I thought there was a nice parallel there.

Mike Matthews: You mentioned that social fitness is very important, maybe as important as physical fitness. Can you elaborate on that?

Robert Waldinger: Yeah, well, that’s what we found.

Robert Waldinger: We’ve published hundreds of papers, 11 books, and so much research, but it really boils down to two big findings.

Robert Waldinger: One is about physical health, and one is about social health.

Robert Waldinger: The physical health part is everything you talk about with your listeners all the time, right? When you take care of your body, when you watch what you eat, when you get regular exercise, when you don’t abuse drugs or alcohol—all of that really matters. It can add years, sometimes even more than a decade, of extra life and disability-free life.

Robert Waldinger: But we were not new in that department. Yes, we found that in our study, but many people found that earlier.

Robert Waldinger: What we found that surprised us, that we didn’t believe at first, was about social fitness.

Robert Waldinger: We found that when we looked at people in their 50s and tracked everything we knew about them, then followed them into their 80s, and asked, “What would predict who is going to be a healthy, happy 80-year-old?”

Robert Waldinger: We thought it would be blood pressure and cholesterol level. And yes, those things were important.

Robert Waldinger: But the most important predictor of who was going to age in a happy, healthy way was people’s satisfaction with their relationships when they were in their 50s.

Robert Waldinger: The people who were the most socially connected and had the warmest relationships stayed the healthiest and lived the longest.

Robert Waldinger: And we didn’t believe it at first. We say the mind and the body are connected, but really—how could your relationships actually get into your body and change your physiology?

Robert Waldinger: So we’ve been spending the last 10 years in our laboratory trying to understand how this actually works. Many other laboratories are looking at the same thing because now, many studies have found the same thing—in groups all over the world.

Robert Waldinger: Social connections are powerful for health and longevity.

Mike Matthews: And what are some of the working theories about how that is translating to physiological changes that are contributing to wellness and longevity?

Robert Waldinger: Yeah, the best theory we have has to do with stress, that good relationships actually are stress relievers.

Robert Waldinger: If you think about it, if you have something really upsetting happen, you can feel your body rev up—you know, your heart rate increases, your breathing gets faster, and you might start to sweat. That’s all normal.

Robert Waldinger: That’s the fight-or-flight response. It’s meant to go back to normal, back to baseline, when the threat is removed.

Robert Waldinger: And I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but sometimes I’ll have a really upsetting day, and I’ll come home and complain about it to my partner, and it’s like, I can literally feel my body calm down.

Robert Waldinger: If you have somebody at home, somebody you can call, or even someone in the next cubicle that you can vent to, you can feel that stress recede.

Robert Waldinger: And we believe that’s an important part of what keeps us healthy—we need help getting back to baseline.

Robert Waldinger: What we think happens is that people who are lonely, people who are isolated, don’t have anybody to do that with.

Robert Waldinger: And one in four people in the U.S. says there’s no one in the world they can talk to about personal matters. So this is real—25%.

Robert Waldinger: We think that those people stay in a low-level fight-or-flight response.

Robert Waldinger: And what that does is it sets up chronic inflammation that breaks down joints, breaks down coronary arteries. It weakens the immune system, so we’re more susceptible to infection.

Robert Waldinger: So we believe that stress relief is essential for maintaining health, and isolation makes us chronically stressed.

Mike Matthews: I’m going to ask, selfishly here, as someone who works a lot.

Mike Matthews: For a long time now, that’s just my default. There’s something in the way that I’m wired—I’m a very goal-seeking type of person where I decide, “This is the next thing that I want to do,” and then my instinct is to do nothing else but that.

Mike Matthews: There’s a part of me that just wants to do that, that actually doesn’t even want to go to the gym sometimes, doesn’t even want to eat food. I have to actually remind myself, “Okay, it’s time to go to the gym now. It’s time to hop on my bike and do my cardio. It’s time to go make a meal.”

Mike Matthews: And something that I’ve consciously deprioritized, really for the last decade since I’ve been focusing mostly on my career, is socialization.

Mike Matthews: I can say that I’ve definitely experienced exactly what you said—there is certainly a stress relief that comes with positive social interactions.

Mike Matthews: I wouldn’t say that I’m struggling with the balance, but I will say that my life has been very imbalanced in that way by design.

Mike Matthews: And I wonder—I’m not sure that wiring is going to change in me. I think I would actually be deeply unhappy if I were to flip that and put a lot of time into socializing, making a lot of phone calls, and hanging out, and then not really pursuing goals.

Mike Matthews: I know that there are a lot of people listening who probably tend to be the same way—people who, for example, take their fitness seriously. In my experience, they are often similarly driven in other areas of life and are quick to neglect socializing because it feels easy to delete.

Mike Matthews: So two questions with that little preamble.

Mike Matthews: One is, what would some of the symptoms or signs be of having too little socialization?

Mike Matthews: What might that look like? If somebody were speaking with you, how would they recognize that they could benefit from additional socialization?

Mike Matthews: And then the follow-up is, what are your thoughts on the minimum effective dose approach to socialization to prevent the downsides? Maybe we’re not going to get all of the potential upside, but at least we’re mitigating the risks.

Robert Waldinger: That’s a great question. It’s like the idea of “10,000 steps, 30 minutes a day,” right?

Robert Waldinger: So the first question—how does it show up? How would you know if you needed more socializing?

Robert Waldinger: Well, one way is really obvious. It’s, “Do you feel lonely?”

Robert Waldinger: Do you feel less connected to other people than you would like to?

Robert Waldinger: When large surveys are done, as many as one in three people say they feel lonely much of the time.

Robert Waldinger: Loneliness is a subjective experience. You can be lonely in the middle of a crowd, or you can be perfectly happy as a hermit on a mountaintop.

Robert Waldinger: Loneliness is in the eye of the beholder.

Robert Waldinger: So one question to ask yourself is, “Am I lonely?”

Robert Waldinger: That might look like, “I work, work, work, work, work. I work nonstop. But then I have my Saturday free, and I don’t have anything to do. I don’t have anybody to talk to. And I feel kind of lonely.”

Robert Waldinger: That’s a good sign. That’s an important sign to take seriously.

Robert Waldinger: Another sign is burnout.

Robert Waldinger: If you’re working, working, working, and yeah, you’re a driven person and you like working, but are you burning out?

Robert Waldinger: That’s another sign that you may not have enough variation in your life, including social contact that isn’t work-related.

Robert Waldinger: So I would say those are the two big signs—feeling lonely and feeling burned out.

Robert Waldinger: Then you asked about the dose, which is a great question.

Robert Waldinger: Many of us are introverts. We’re all somewhere on a spectrum, from introverts who actually don’t need a lot of people in their lives to extroverts who want a lot of people in their lives.

Robert Waldinger: Most of us are somewhere in between.

Robert Waldinger: And if you’re an introvert, as you were saying, if you were to call people up all the time, that would be stressful for you.

Mike Matthews: Yeah, I don’t do that. I do make some time. I do have a handful of people I stay close with.

Mike Matthews: I wouldn’t say it’s scheduled, but it usually happens in a semi-planned way, like, “Okay, I’m going to go make some food now for dinner. I’ll make a phone call and socialize while I’m making food.”

Robert Waldinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You sound like my sons who are in their thirties. They’re always doing something else while they talk to me.

Mike Matthews: Yeah, or I’ll do that during my 30 minutes of cardio. I’ll call my buddy, and we’ll talk about some business things or whatever.

Robert Waldinger: Well, the important thing here is that there’s nothing wrong with being an introvert.

Robert Waldinger: There’s nothing wrong with wanting fewer people in your life. In fact, there’s a lot right with it.

Robert Waldinger: Each of us needs to check in with ourselves and ask, “What’s the right amount of socializing for me?”

Robert Waldinger: You don’t want too much if that’s not good for you, and you don’t want too little if you’re more on the extroverted side.

Robert Waldinger: So it’s really a judgment call, and you can make changes.

Robert Waldinger: That’s one of the things we talk about in the book—what can you do if you don’t have enough people in your life, or if you want to strengthen some of the relationships you already have?

Robert Waldinger: But what we do think is that everybody, no matter how shy or introverted they might be, needs at least one or two people in their life who they feel have their back.

Robert Waldinger: At one point, we asked our study participants, “Who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared?”

Robert Waldinger: Most people could list a number of people, but some couldn’t list anyone.

Robert Waldinger: And those were among our most stressed participants—the ones whose health broke down sooner.

Robert Waldinger: So everybody needs somebody.

Mike Matthews: Is there a dimension here related to quantity and quality?

Mike Matthews: Speaking personally, what seems to work well for me is having a large number of acquaintances but a small number of close friends.

Mike Matthews: I have a deeper connection with a few people—I could probably count them on one hand, certainly not more than 10, and maybe half of those get regular time.

Mike Matthews: I make phone calls and see them in person when I can, and that seems to work well for me.

Mike Matthews: Does the depth of connection make up for a lack of quantity?

Mike Matthews: And do some people work the other way around, where they find that having more shallow relationships actually works better for them than only having a few deep connections?

Robert Waldinger: That’s a great question, because when you study thousands of lives, the first thing you learn is that one size never fits all.

Robert Waldinger: So, as you’re suggesting, there are people for whom superficial friendships are fine and enough.

Robert Waldinger: And then there are other people for whom that would be terrible—they need deep, confiding friendships.

Robert Waldinger: We’re all built differently in that way.

Robert Waldinger: So while we all need people, we need them in different ways, depending on who we are.

Mike Matthews: You mentioned in the book that you also talk about effective ways to create and deepen connections with people.

Mike Matthews: That’s a tactical level question—if someone wants to do this, how do they actually go about it?

Robert Waldinger: Okay, I’ve got tactics, and they’re based on research.

Robert Waldinger: There are two categories we can think about.

Robert Waldinger: One is, “I want to be closer to the people I already have in my life.”

Robert Waldinger: The other is, “I don’t have enough people in my life, and I’d like to bring some new people in.”

Robert Waldinger: For the people you’d like to be closer to, the key is frequency.

Robert Waldinger: Frequent contact—little interactions—make a big difference.

Robert Waldinger: The people who were best at maintaining relationships were the ones who reached out regularly.

Robert Waldinger: Earlier in our study, before the digital age, people would call each other on the phone, go for walks, or have a regular bowling night together.

Robert Waldinger: Now, it can be as simple as sending a text, making a phone call while cooking dinner, or checking in just to say, “Hey, how was your day?”

Robert Waldinger: People love to talk about themselves, so be curious about them and reach out.

Robert Waldinger: But the key is doing it often.

Robert Waldinger: You also want to make sure you regularly connect with a few people—if there are a few relationships you want to keep strong, make sure you’re in touch weekly, sometimes even daily.

Robert Waldinger: You don’t even have to add extra time in your schedule.

Mike Matthews: Yeah, like working out—it lends itself well to this if you have a training partner.

Mike Matthews: If you live near someone and can coordinate schedules, you can train together and strengthen that relationship at the same time.

Robert Waldinger: Totally.

Robert Waldinger: And I bet you know from your work that when you do that, you’re more likely to show up at the gym because someone is waiting for you.

Mike Matthews: Absolutely. Training with someone else is much more enjoyable.

Mike Matthews: I’ve been training solo for some time now because I moved recently and haven’t put a lot of effort into networking yet.

Mike Matthews: But I’ve done it both ways, and training with a partner is definitely more fun.

Mike Matthews: The only benefit of training solo is that I use rest periods to do flashcards for educational stuff.

Mike Matthews: By the end of the workout, I’ve gone through all my flashcards, which I’d otherwise have to do at another time.

Mike Matthews: But even with that, I’d still take the socializing over the flashcards.

Robert Waldinger: Well, it doesn’t have to be either-or—you can do both!

Robert Waldinger: Now, for the other category—bringing new people into your life—how do you do that?

Mike Matthews: Which, in my experience and for many others, gets harder as an adult.

Mike Matthews: It seems to be more difficult to make real friends as an adult than when we were younger.

Robert Waldinger: Totally.

Robert Waldinger: Especially for those of us who work remotely—like right now, I’m sitting here working mostly by myself, and you’re doing the same.

Robert Waldinger: The best way to meet new people—and this is backed by research—is to do something you care about with people you don’t yet know, and do it repeatedly.

Robert Waldinger: It could be anything—joining a soccer league, a gardening club, a running group, a cycling club.

Robert Waldinger: It could be volunteering, working on climate change, or any activity you enjoy.

Robert Waldinger: If you like it or care about it and do it with others, you immediately have something to talk about because of your shared interest.

Robert Waldinger: You’re also more likely to strike up a conversation with strangers if you see them again and again, and eventually, some of those conversations will deepen into friendships.

Robert Waldinger: This is why, when my kids went to a big new school, we told them to join clubs and get involved in activities.

Robert Waldinger: It wasn’t just about the activities—it was about making friends.

Robert Waldinger: And it worked.

Robert Waldinger: The same thing works for adults, too.

Mike Matthews: In a fitness context, this is one of the reasons many people enjoy group fitness classes.

Mike Matthews: If they go at the same time every week, they see the same people, and that becomes a big part of why they keep going.

Robert Waldinger: Exactly.

Robert Waldinger: In our study, some people found their best friends at a gym.

Robert Waldinger: A lot of people also go to church or other places of worship, not necessarily for religious reasons, but for social connections.

Mike Matthews: Can you talk a bit about how our early life and family experiences influence our ability to create and maintain healthy relationships later in life?

Mike Matthews: And for those of us who are parents or planning to become parents, are there lessons we can learn to help our children build strong relationships?

Robert Waldinger: Yeah. The primary place we learn how to form relationships is in our families.

Robert Waldinger: Parents play a huge role in teaching kids how to get along with people—how to hold a conversation, how to listen, how not to interrupt, how to be curious about others, and how to deal with disagreements.

Robert Waldinger: And that last one is a big deal—how do you handle a disagreement without hurting someone or making them angry?

Robert Waldinger: Parents do a lot to teach those skills, even indirectly.

Robert Waldinger: One of the key places kids learn about relationships is at family meals.

Robert Waldinger: Research shows that families who eat together regularly have kids who are much more socialized.

Robert Waldinger: These kids tend to do better in school, not just socially, but academically as well.

Robert Waldinger: And they certainly do better in getting along with their peers.

Robert Waldinger: Parents are the first role models for relationships.

Robert Waldinger: Ideally, families are peaceful, kind to one another, and model that the world is a generally good place.

Robert Waldinger: Of course, there are exceptions, and not every family environment is positive, but that’s the goal.

Robert Waldinger: There’s also something called social and emotional learning that has been developed for kids in schools.

Robert Waldinger: These programs teach kids how to manage emotions, how to handle disagreements with peers, and how to interact effectively.

Robert Waldinger: Research shows that kids who go through these kinds of programs tend to do much better, both in academics and in social situations.

Mike Matthews: Are there any common parenting mistakes that stand out as particularly detrimental to a child’s ability to form healthy relationships later in life?

Robert Waldinger: Yeah, one of the biggest mistakes is being wildly inconsistent as a parent.

Robert Waldinger: Consistency is incredibly important for kids.

Robert Waldinger: If you say you’re going to do something, do it.

Robert Waldinger: If you tell your child you’ll pick them up at a certain time, be there on time.

Robert Waldinger: That might sound trivial, but it really matters.

Robert Waldinger: Kids need predictability—it helps them feel safe and secure.

Robert Waldinger: Another big mistake is parents not managing their own emotions.

Robert Waldinger: If you’re feeling overwhelmed with anger or anxiety, step away before reacting.

Robert Waldinger: Kids are incredibly sensitive, and if a parent is unpredictable in their emotions—one day being warm and loving, and the next being harsh and impatient—it can be confusing and stressful for the child.

Robert Waldinger: The best thing parents can do is learn to regulate their own emotions so they don’t take them out on their kids.

Mike Matthews: That makes sense. Kids probably learn to interact with others the way their parents interact with them.

Robert Waldinger: Exactly.

Robert Waldinger: Kids are sponges. They soak up what they see.

Robert Waldinger: Parents should always remember that what they do is far more powerful than what they say.

Robert Waldinger: If you want your child to be kind and patient, be kind and patient yourself.

Mike Matthews: That’s very true in the context of health and fitness, too.

Mike Matthews: I’ve heard from many parents over the years who struggle with kids who only want to eat junk food.

Mike Matthews: And often, not always, but often, the kids learned about junk food from their parents.

Mike Matthews: Maybe the parent ate it regularly, even if they tried to limit how much the child had.

Mike Matthews: So, the child sees it as a normal part of eating.

Mike Matthews: Then, when the parents try to shift to healthier eating, it’s a struggle to get the child on board because they’ve already established a pattern.

Mike Matthews: If parents, from the beginning, eat well and take care of themselves, that’s much more effective than simply telling kids they should eat well.

Robert Waldinger: That’s absolutely right.

Robert Waldinger: It applies to things like screen time, too.

Robert Waldinger: If parents are always on their phones or distracted by screens, kids are going to copy that behavior.

Mike Matthews: That leads me to something I wanted to ask about—the idea that attention is the most basic form of love.

Mike Matthews: How do we apply that in relationships?

Robert Waldinger: That comes from one of my Zen teachers, John Tarrant.

Robert Waldinger: And if you think about it, our full, undivided attention is one of the most valuable things we can give to each other—especially to a child.

Robert Waldinger: We live in an age of constant distraction—multiple screens, endless notifications, always being “on.”

Robert Waldinger: But real connection happens when we give people our full presence.

Robert Waldinger: That means putting the phone away, turning off the TV, and really listening to the other person.

Robert Waldinger: And we all know what it feels like when someone is fully present with us—it feels amazing.

Mike Matthews: I want to go back quickly to the topic of relationship quality.

Mike Matthews: How would you define a high-quality relationship?

Robert Waldinger: It’s a good but complicated question.

Robert Waldinger: I would say a high-quality relationship is one where each person feels free to be themselves.

Robert Waldinger: You don’t have to hide parts of yourself or walk on eggshells.

Robert Waldinger: You feel accepted as you are.

Robert Waldinger: Another big factor is mutuality.

Robert Waldinger: In healthy relationships, both people give and take.

Robert Waldinger: It’s not one person doing all the giving while the other does all the taking.

Robert Waldinger: When relationships feel lopsided, it often leads to resentment and burnout.

Mike Matthews: That resonates. My wife and I have talked about this because she has a naturally giving personality.

Mike Matthews: And over the years, she’s been taken advantage of because of it.

Mike Matthews: She’s gotten better at recognizing it and setting boundaries, but it’s still uncomfortable for her.

Robert Waldinger: I totally get that because I have the same issue.

Robert Waldinger: It’s hard for people like that to say no.

Robert Waldinger: But over time, I’ve learned to be clear about what I can and can’t do.

Robert Waldinger: And honestly, people appreciate it when you’re upfront.

Robert Waldinger: If someone asks for something, and I say, “I’d love to help, but I can’t,” they respect that more than if I overcommit and then struggle to follow through.

Mike Matthews: That makes sense. I’ve noticed that as well—if you’re clear and upfront, people tend to respond positively.

Mike Matthews: Whereas if you overcommit and then don’t deliver, that’s much worse.

Robert Waldinger: Exactly. And it goes both ways.

Robert Waldinger: When you make a request of someone, you want to trust that if they say yes, it’s really okay for them, and they aren’t just saying it out of obligation.

Robert Waldinger: That’s part of maintaining a healthy relationship dynamic.

Mike Matthews: Just coming back quickly to this idea of being able to be yourself in a relationship—I think that’s also a good signal of potential for a high-quality relationship.

Mike Matthews: In my experience, there have been people I’ve interacted with where, for whatever reason, I just didn’t feel comfortable being completely myself.

Mike Matthews: It wasn’t that I had to be someone I’m not, but I just couldn’t fully relax or say what I really think.

Mike Matthews: And then there have been other people where, within 30 minutes of talking, I felt completely at ease—like I could communicate freely, even if we disagreed on things, and it wasn’t a big deal.

Mike Matthews: So, when you said that earlier, it really clicked for me because you can get a sense of that pretty quickly. It doesn’t take much interaction to know if you feel that way around someone.

Robert Waldinger: Exactly. And it’s worth trusting that feeling because we don’t have to be friends with everyone.

Robert Waldinger: We’re not going to click with every person we meet.

Robert Waldinger: And that’s okay.

Robert Waldinger: You can be friendly, cordial, and respectful with people you don’t deeply connect with.

Robert Waldinger: But when you find people you can truly be yourself around, those are the relationships to invest in.

Mike Matthews: I want to shift gears to romantic relationships.

Mike Matthews: How does that arena differ from friendships and family relationships?

Mike Matthews: Do romantic relationships have different impacts on well-being?

Mike Matthews: And are there different factors we should take into account when trying to make a romantic relationship work?

Robert Waldinger: It’s interesting because we tend to think of romantic relationships as very different from friendships, but in many ways, they’re not.

Robert Waldinger: Obviously, there’s the sexual attraction element, and that’s important, but over and above that, you want a lot of the same things you look for in friendships.

Robert Waldinger: Because sex is only one part of a romantic relationship—what about all the other hours of the day?

Robert Waldinger: You want to feel comfortable with your partner. You want to be able to be yourself.

Robert Waldinger: You want to be with someone who gives as much as they take and vice versa.

Robert Waldinger: And the difficulty is when physical attraction blinds us to emotional incompatibility.

Robert Waldinger: You might be really attracted to someone, but if you constantly feel drained, anxious, or like you can’t be yourself around them—that’s a warning sign.

Robert Waldinger: And that’s something people should pay attention to before making deep commitments, like moving in together, getting married, or having kids.

Mike Matthews: I’ve had that conversation with people before, where I’ve explicitly told them, “You should not be with this person.”

Mike Matthews: And in a few cases, they went ahead anyway, and… it’s not going great.

Robert Waldinger: Yeah, that happens a lot.

Robert Waldinger: One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking, “This person will change.”

Robert Waldinger: Or, “I’ll change them.”

Robert Waldinger: That’s a huge red flag.

Robert Waldinger: If you’re with someone and you’re already thinking, “I hope they’ll change,” you need to ask yourself:

Robert Waldinger: “If they never change, would I still be happy in this relationship?”

Robert Waldinger: Because the reality is, people rarely change in big ways—at least, not just because their partner wants them to.

Robert Waldinger: It takes enormous personal effort to make deep, lasting changes in ourselves.

Robert Waldinger: So if someone isn’t actively working on themselves right now, the likelihood that they’ll suddenly start putting in that effort later is very low.

Mike Matthews: That’s exactly what I’ve told people before.

Mike Matthews: “Look at how much effort you’re putting into improving yourself. Now, how much effort is this person putting in? None? Okay, do you think that’s magically going to change?”

Mike Matthews: And I’ve also said, maybe this is a little cynical, but assume things will actually get worse over time, not better.

Mike Matthews: Life gets harder—more responsibilities, financial pressures, family obligations.

Mike Matthews: So if the relationship is already struggling, do you really think it’s going to improve under more stress?

Robert Waldinger: Exactly.

Robert Waldinger: And that’s why one of the best pieces of advice I can give is this:

Robert Waldinger: “If this relationship never changes, is that okay for you?”

Robert Waldinger: Because this—whatever the relationship is now—is likely what you’re signing up for long-term.

Robert Waldinger: And if you’re already unhappy with it, that’s a huge signal to step back and reassess.

Mike Matthews: And sometimes it’s hard for people to really understand how bad things can get until they experience it firsthand.

Mike Matthews: It’s easy to intellectualize it—”Oh yeah, it won’t be that bad, I’ll figure it out.”

Mike Matthews: But then they actually live through it and say, “This is the worst period of my life. I completely underestimated how bad this would be.”

Robert Waldinger: Exactly.

Robert Waldinger: And if someone is really struggling with that decision—if they’re unsure whether the relationship is right for them—couples therapy can be incredibly helpful.

Robert Waldinger: A lot of people assume couples therapy is just about fixing relationships, but sometimes it helps people realize they shouldn’t be together.

Robert Waldinger: A good therapist won’t just try to keep people together—they’ll help both partners figure out if the relationship is actually working for them.

Mike Matthews: That makes sense.

Mike Matthews: Are there any common traits or habits among couples who have successful relationships?

Robert Waldinger: Absolutely.

Robert Waldinger: One of the biggest things is having shared goals and values.

Robert Waldinger: You don’t have to agree on everything, but you want to be aligned on the big things.

Robert Waldinger: How important are material things to you?

Robert Waldinger: Do you both want kids?

Robert Waldinger: How important is religion?

Robert Waldinger: These are huge topics, and if you aren’t aligned on them, it can cause serious friction down the road.

Robert Waldinger: Another big thing is how couples handle conflict.

Robert Waldinger: Every couple has disagreements—that’s normal.

Robert Waldinger: The question isn’t whether you fight, it’s how you fight.

Robert Waldinger: Can you work through conflicts in a way that’s productive and respectful?

Robert Waldinger: Or do arguments always turn into personal attacks and resentment?

Robert Waldinger: If you can’t resolve conflicts in a way where both people feel okay afterward, that’s a problem.

Mike Matthews: That makes sense.

Mike Matthews: Especially because as life gets more complex—marriage, kids, financial stress—those disagreements become higher stakes.

Robert Waldinger: Exactly.

Robert Waldinger: Life is going to throw challenges at you.

Robert Waldinger: The key is whether you and your partner can navigate those challenges together, rather than constantly being at odds.

Mike Matthews: We’re coming up on the hour here, so I want to be respectful of your time.

Mike Matthews: This has been a great discussion, and we’ve covered almost everything I wanted to ask you about.

Mike Matthews: The only thing we didn’t really touch on was social media, and I’d love to get your thoughts on that.

Robert Waldinger: It’s a mixed bag.

Robert Waldinger: A lot of it depends on how we use social media.

Robert Waldinger: It can be a great tool for connection—it can help people stay in touch, share experiences, and maintain relationships across distances.

Robert Waldinger: But it can also be a terrible rabbit hole.

Robert Waldinger: People who use social media passively—just scrolling and consuming—often end up feeling worse.

Robert Waldinger: One of the biggest reasons for that is comparison.

Robert Waldinger: When we see highlight reels of other people’s lives—vacations, successes, perfect families—we compare that to our own everyday reality.

Robert Waldinger: And that can make people feel inadequate, like their own life isn’t measuring up.

Robert Waldinger: Research shows that people who use social media primarily for active engagement—interacting with others, having conversations—tend to be happier than those who use it passively.

Robert Waldinger: So it really comes down to how we use it.

Mike Matthews: That makes sense.

Mike Matthews: I’ve seen research on that, and I’ve also seen it anecdotally—people who spend a lot of time passively scrolling tend to be less happy, while people who engage and actually use it to connect seem to benefit more.

Mike Matthews: But, like anything, it seems to require mindfulness.

Robert Waldinger: Absolutely.

Robert Waldinger: It’s about intentionality.

Robert Waldinger: If you’re using social media as a tool for connection, it can be valuable.

Robert Waldinger: But if it’s becoming a substitute for real-world connection—or making you feel bad about yourself—it might be time to reevaluate your habits.

Mike Matthews: That’s a great takeaway.

Mike Matthews: Well, I know you have to run, so I’ll wrap up here.

Mike Matthews: Thanks again for taking the time to do this.

Mike Matthews: I really enjoyed the discussion, and I think the audience will find it valuable as well.

Robert Waldinger: I really enjoyed it too.

Robert Waldinger: Thanks for having me!

Mike Matthews: And of course, your book is The Good Life.

Mike Matthews: Is there anywhere else you’d like people to go if they want to learn more about your work?

Robert Waldinger: Yes, I have a website—robertwaldinger.com—where people can find more information about my research.

Robert Waldinger: I also send out a newsletter every couple of weeks, so if people want to stay updated, they can sign up there.

Mike Matthews: Great!

Mike Matthews: So for anyone still listening, if you enjoyed this discussion, definitely check out The Good Life and visit robertwaldinger.com.

Mike Matthews: Thanks again, Bob.

Robert Waldinger: My pleasure.

Mike Matthews: We’re coming up on the hour here, so I want to be respectful of your time.

Mike Matthews: This has been a great discussion, and we’ve covered almost everything I wanted to ask you about.

Mike Matthews: The only thing we didn’t really touch on was social media, and I’d love to get your thoughts on that.

Robert Waldinger: It’s a mixed bag.

Robert Waldinger: A lot of it depends on how we use social media.

Robert Waldinger: It can be a great tool for connection—it can help people stay in touch, share experiences, and maintain relationships across distances.

Robert Waldinger: But it can also be a terrible rabbit hole.

Robert Waldinger: People who use social media passively—just scrolling and consuming—often end up feeling worse.

Robert Waldinger: One of the biggest reasons for that is comparison.

Robert Waldinger: When we see highlight reels of other people’s lives—vacations, successes, perfect families—we compare that to our own everyday reality.

Robert Waldinger: And that can make people feel inadequate, like their own life isn’t measuring up.

Robert Waldinger: Research shows that people who use social media primarily for active engagement—interacting with others, having conversations—tend to be happier than those who use it passively.

Robert Waldinger: So it really comes down to how we use it.

Mike Matthews: That makes sense.

Mike Matthews: I’ve seen research on that, and I’ve also seen it anecdotally—people who spend a lot of time passively scrolling tend to be less happy, while people who engage and actually use it to connect seem to benefit more.

Mike Matthews: But, like anything, it seems to require mindfulness.

Robert Waldinger: Absolutely.

Robert Waldinger: It’s about intentionality.

Robert Waldinger: If you’re using social media as a tool for connection, it can be valuable.

Robert Waldinger: But if it’s becoming a substitute for real-world connection—or making you feel bad about yourself—it might be time to reevaluate your habits.

Mike Matthews: That’s a great takeaway.

Mike Matthews: Well, I know you have to run, so I’ll wrap up here.

Mike Matthews: Thanks again for taking the time to do this.

Mike Matthews: I really enjoyed the discussion, and I think the audience will find it valuable as well.

Robert Waldinger: I really enjoyed it too.

Robert Waldinger: Thanks for having me!

Mike Matthews: And of course, your book is The Good Life.

Mike Matthews: Is there anywhere else you’d like people to go if they want to learn more about your work?

Robert Waldinger: Yes, I have a website—robertwaldinger.com—where people can find more information about my research.

Robert Waldinger: I also send out a newsletter every couple of weeks, so if people want to stay updated, they can sign up there.

Mike Matthews: Great!

Mike Matthews: So for anyone still listening, if you enjoyed this discussion, definitely check out The Good Life and visit robertwaldinger.com.

Mike Matthews: Thanks again, Bob.

Robert Waldinger: My pleasure.