Ep. #147: What I’ve Learned From Selling One Million Books (feat. Noah Kagan)

Mike Matthews: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, this is Mike from Ask for Life, and I am back with another episode of the podcast. My voice sounds a little bit funny because I had a cold last week, which is fun, shared food with my son last Sunday, didn’t notice that he was sniffling, and didn’t feel so good myself for just a few days, but it was only a few days.

So hashtag thankful 365 for that. Anyways, this episode is going to be a bit different than what you’re used to in this episode. I have a kind of wandering discussion with my buddy, Noah Kagan about various things related to writing and selling books. As you’ll see, Noah is interviewing me and just asking questions that he has had about my writing process and how I’ve gone about creating books that have really stood out in their respective niches.

And Collectively sold about a million [00:01:00] copies now in the last five years, which is a big number. But I would say that if that were my sole focus, if books were my sole focus over the last five years, I really think that I could have sold five times that number. And that’s my goal, just my personal goal for the next let’s say over the next three years or so.

I’d like to get that up to five million copies and I’m going to do exactly what I’m going to lay out in this podcast to get there. And I am very confident very confident that I can do that by just following the strategies that I am going to lay out in this episode. So if you, Mr. or Mrs. Listener, are interested in a podcast, writing books that sell.

I think you’re going to enjoy this discussion. And if you’re not, you may still enjoy it because we just goof around and talk about various things related to business and marketing that sure, they help you sell books, but they can also help your business in other ways. They can help you sell other things as well.

And lastly, this episode is all about. brought to you [00:02:00] by me. Seriously, though, I’m not big on promoting stuff that I don’t personally use and believe in. So instead, I’m just going to quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my 100 percent natural post workout supplement recharge. Recharge helps you gain muscle and strength faster and recover better from your workouts.

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Noah Kagan: Oh, so how do you come up with your after content so much fucking better?

We were talking about that, we started that a couple weeks 

Mike Matthews: ago. One, I would say I really enjoy writing. I really do it because I actually really enjoy it. And amongst all the other shit that I do, writing is still, I would say, some, probably my most favorite work, just research and writing. In that sense I don’t know, whatever it is, creative expression or whatever, but I actually care to I really try to do as good of a job as I can explaining things, I’m going for clarity and and not beating people over the head with jargon or science or I want people to know that that I know what I’m talking about and if they want to go dive into the science here are links. You can go do that. But first and foremost, I want to explain things in a way that anyone can understand and I want people to come in to an article, with a burning question in their mind or a problem or something and leave with that question fully answered.

Or and [00:04:00] or something actionable that they can now do, and so I guess like in my previous life I had a company, small company, few people, and we created employee training programs for random companies. We niched into the healthcare space, which is very random, but it’s also maybe something I guess I, maybe I had a little bit of a knack for it, but it was, that was a skill set I had to hone because I had to go into, it became a bit more formulaic over time as I got more experience, but I had to in some cases go into jobs that I didn’t know anything about myself and reverse engineer, take someone that is good at the job, reverse engineer.

How do they do it? And put that into essentially a training manual that anyone could go through. It goes all the way back to that e myth shit I was talking about in terms of systematizing and codifying things in a business. So that’s training. That, that’s what you do.

So you know, I don’t know, a lot of it I feel like has been internalized at this point, but cause, cause it’s at this point now where. I’ll just, I’ll write things and through my [00:05:00] own drafts and going over where I’ll just be like, Yeah, that sounds good. And what, basically it’s where like when I produce something that I think is good it tends to resonate well with other people.

You know what I mean? So I do understand that. And you know that from a marketing perspective. You have so much experience. You just look at shit. You’re like, yeah, that’s fucking good. That’s gonna work. And you don’t necessarily run through some checklist in your mind. You’re just like, yeah, that’s it.

You know what I mean? 

Noah Kagan: So what you were saying, you you do have some type of process that you go through? 

Mike Matthews: It’s so if I were to like try to reverse engineer it I would say one thing that’s very big is, as you’ve probably noticed is I like to teach on a gradient of like very simple things first.

So even if that means we have to define terminology and get some basic, fundamental understanding before. So like somebody might come into an article. Wanting to know about this thing, whatever that is, but to really, and if I were to say, if they were to ask me the question, how do I do blah or whatever, if I were to give them the one paragraph, here’s your answer and not, just say, there it is.

They wouldn’t [00:06:00] like, they wouldn’t understand it. They wouldn’t understand the context. They wouldn’t understand why. So they wouldn’t necessarily buy into it. And they might not even understand how it works if I just tell them what to do. That’s just the what, but not the why or the how, right? So I try to then, stretch all that out and say, okay, so if when somebody comes to the article what’s the one thing that they need to really take away from this?

And, okay, so I have that now, how, what do they need to understand that? And let me break that down to and again, that’s where personal judgment comes into play in terms of like, How to, to how far do I want to work this back and what are like, what do they really need to understand and what can be communicated in two to 3000 words as opposed to 15, 000 words like Greg Knuckles, for example, a lot of his stuff is very long and very dense.

And so I’m trying to. Be like, like Greg for layman where, yeah, I do like to talk a bit about science and I do like to get technical, but always in a way where I envisioned that I’m writing to someone, that [00:07:00] is maybe has a ninth grade degree. education, basically ninth grade vocabulary.

And I’m not, I don’t want to put the burden of understanding on them. I want to give them little bites, little concepts that like, if they can just understand this little breadcrumb trail of concepts, 15 little concepts that build one on the other. Finally, at the end, the whole thing makes sense.

But I’m. Approach any writing like that. So any section of the article, the intros are obviously just trying to be interesting, trying to hook them. But once we get into the meat of it, it’s even if we’re starting at, let’s say it’s a protein type question, right?

Related to protein and building muscle. I would start that discussion with what is protein? Why does it even matter? Why do we need to eat protein to build muscle? Because if you don’t even understand that, and I just tell you, Let’s say I just say, all right, you want the quick answer. It’s about one gram per pound of body weight per day.

You can go a little bit lower if you want, or a little bit higher if you’re like super lean wanting to get even leaner, but that’s that’s where you want to be. [00:08:00] There’s your answer. And even if you’re like, okay, I think this dude knows what he’s talking about. That’s cool. I’m going to do that for a bit.

But then you go read someone else’s shit and they’re like and they also seem like they know what they’re talking about and they can articulate themselves and they go well, it’s like half a gram per pound actually that’s what you should be eating and then if you don’t have, if that’s like it, if you just have gotten the little fucking, tweets of answers, how are you supposed to determine which, it just becomes the criteria become very random in terms of yeah. How do you know who to listen to? So I like to start rewind that and go, okay, so let’s first, let’s talk about why protein matters. Let’s give you some basic understanding of what protein is comprised of. Why do you need to eat protein?

So then when we phase into, so there’s what protein is, actually like chemically, and then what does it do in the body? How is it related to muscle building? And now let’s talk about some, some let’s quantify some things and look at some research in terms of quantities.

And so when somebody comes through the end of that, they feel like they’ve learned a lot more and they have a much better understanding of things they didn’t even know what to ask. Like the question probably should [00:09:00] have been initially, So what does the word protein mean? What is protein?

Noah Kagan: You know what I mean? 

Mike Matthews: That’s, 

Noah Kagan: so you break it down by that way, which makes it nice to Oh, okay, I guess that’s what a protein is. 

Mike Matthews: Exactly. And I think also as a reader at any point we feel kind of friction, even if it’s a subconscious and that we don’t quite understand something or there are words in there that we don’t understand, we don’t, we don’t have degrees in this, that, or whatever.

So if you’re reading again, if you go to read Greg Knuckles stuff, and I think he’s gotten a little bit better in this regard, but if you read some of his older stuff, he goes deep into biomechanics and says words that somebody that is well versed in that, of course they know those words, of course, but, you wouldn’t, and it’s not because you’re stupid, it’s because you don’t know that stuff you’re not, you haven’t studied that stuff, so if he’s gonna go into dive into the physics of squatting and talk about levers and fucking fulcrums and shit, and you’re like, k and how it applies to this joint and that, and just throwing words around it, it makes, it can make you feel stupid like it and it can be frustrating as an individual and the same thing with me if I [00:10:00] go dive into something like one of the first things I do if I’m learning something is I’m really diligent I mean I do this anyway but I’m very I’m looking for like key terminology like I want to make sure I want to feel like I fully understand all the words that I’m reading so that might mean in the beginning this is how it was in this space when I dove into it was reading a lot of scientific literature, meta analyses and reviews were particularly good because they are a bit more conversational and they do give you a bit broad, a bit of a broader view and review a lot of research.

But in the beginning it was just learning the meaning of a lot of fucking words, so then, honestly, so then I could read You know, get to the point where I could read research, diet research was that nutrition is a bit easier, but okay, cool. So now I understand enough where I can actually make my own judgments on does this make sense or not?

And then come to a, an under the understanding that the researchers were trying to instill in other people. That’s why they chose those words. But if you don’t know what they are, so yeah. Again, if as a writer I just I try to stay very sensitive [00:11:00] to that and not allow myself to be lazy in a sense of I’m an expert on certain things and I’m just, I don’t need to, like, why do I have to fucking talk about what that protein is comprised of amino acids and all this basic shit.

They can Wikipedia article. Yeah. But they’re not going to though. So yeah, so that’s a major part and then just trying to keep things as short and sweet as possible. If you can say something in five words instead of 15, that’s always better. And I don’t know, I just, again, I think one of the, and I think it’s similar to marketing, like to be good at marketing, you have to really like marketing.

I wholeheartedly believe that. I think if you’re at least to be really good at it, I don’t know how you feel about that. But. I don’t know anybody that’s really good at marketing that doesn’t truly enjoy it. 

Noah Kagan: I think it’s when you make, yeah, when you make a product that you want to go let the market know about.

Yeah, but marketing on the whole though. 

Mike Matthews: Just some people are not interested in marketing. Like they don’t want to read about it. They don’t want to think about it. They don’t really want to do it. They just want to, let’s say, write books, for example. But they don’t want to, [00:12:00] they don’t want to take time to learn how to sell books or market books.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Really? 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. I, it’s funny because I actually, when I reflect on my life, I think I’m better at the marketing of things than necessarily the making of things. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Like 

Noah Kagan: I’m better at finding, Oh, I really like that. Let me try to figure out how to help get that word out about that idea.

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. Which is from a, from an economic perspective, much better than the other way around. Cause there’s tons of people that are the way around. Where they want to do what they want to do. They want to, they just want to create their little widgets or their things and they don’t want to have to like, confront the business side of it.

That’s fucking, there’s like every starving artist, right? 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. If you think about it, a lot of people want to be like health coaches. Yeah. So what separated someone like you versus them? 

Mike Matthews: I know just from like actual feedback from people. So one, there’s the content creation, which, also having now my books so entrenched in Amazon, I sell, now it’s about 30, 000 copies a month and it just continues to grow.

That [00:13:00] is having, like being a bestselling author positions you, people respect that a lot. Just generally people do because a lot of people think that, and I understand, but they think that writing a book is very hard, and so like someone that has done it, isn’t it very hard?

I don’t know. It’s something I just enjoy doing. Legitimately. It’s like my side project is writing another book on top of whatever the shit other shit I’m doing. But I just really enjoy it. But so if you’ve written a book and if it’s like at least halfway good and has sold a lot of copies, that immediately.

sets me apart from almost everybody else in the space. So there’s that. And then there’s also the ongoing content that I produce on the podcasts and the articles and stuff. And people appreciate that. And they know that I don’t have to do that. I do it actually yeah, there’s business value, but I also do it because I enjoy it.

And I think also there’s maybe a bit of an X factor personality wise, like people just tend to, it manifests in that I have a lot of people that really admire me, basically, is I guess how it [00:14:00] manifests. Do you think it’s because they’ve gotten the results 

Noah Kagan: from you? Like they’ve actually followed some of the things that you’ve done?

I asked Tim Ferriss about it, and I was like, why do people just do whatever you say? Because, I have my own audience of people that are interested in some of the things I have to share. And sometimes I’m like, do you guys ever do what I say? And then it’s not even about ego or anything. But it’s ultimately, if you’re trying to be influential, the things you influence have to be effective to what they’re hoping to get, right?

So people are following your advice, getting results, and what else is Mike going to tell us? 

Mike Matthews: Totally. And then though, when you start achieving success though, that, that becomes, it adds a bit of a, almost a mystique to it all as well, because we instinctively admire people that, make money and are kind of movers and shakers and doing shit that not is different and unique.

So there’s a bit of that. Tim Ferriss benefits greatly from that. Again, like for our body, I’m pretty sure that was a fucking joke between his friends and why he wrote that book. The, it’s, there’s so much fake science and bullshit. The book is at its core. Bullshit and is a joke in [00:15:00] the health and fitness space 

Noah Kagan: For me what i’ve been wondering actually I was curious to get because you know this really Is that so the two things like I actually read his book and I tried some of it for three weeks and for me the binge thing on the weekends didn’t really work well for me.

It just wasn’t to my style. It’s like, all right, binging is I’m binging and you can do, you can 

Mike Matthews: undo an entire week’s worth of weight loss easily in not just a weekend in one day that you got to figure, if you’re in a caloric deficit, let’s say you’re in a 500 calorie deficit, right? That’s pretty standard, whatever.

So for Let’s just say it’s six days. You stick to your diet and you’re good. So you are in a 3, 000 calorie deficit for the week. You’ve lost about a pound. Things are going, pretty well. And then you go and you eat 10, 000 calories on Sunday, which you can do. If you wake up early and you start working at it, you can hit 10, 000 calories in a day.

I was dude. I was hitting the grocery store right away. Exactly. And so let’s say a lot of those calories are from fat as well, right? Which is just stored preferentially as body fat. So you’re eating a lot. You’re eating fucking, pasta. We’re not, sorry, not pasta, pizza and ice cream and just super fatty [00:16:00] foods.

You can, back to square one yourself basically in, in one day. Two days, absolutely easy. You do that shit. Like you go, let’s say, let’s say those are also days where you’re not training. So let’s say Saturday and Sunday, you burn maybe 2000 calories on those days. Cause you’re pretty sedentary and whatever.

And you just eat fucking 7, 000 calories on both of those days. Do the math. You’re now in a 10, 000 calorie surplus in two days, and your body’s going to store a significant percentage of that as body fat. Not all, but if you lost one pound or let’s say one half to one pound of fat during that week, and then you just, and then, so I, and I know not from Tim’s stuff, I, I’ve heard from many people that they that’s where cheat days Fuck people up like they don’t realize and so I’ve seen it first hand. We’re like that was the only major problem That was with their whole diet protocol was they didn’t realize that like cheat days can get out of hand real fucking fast 

Noah Kagan: There’s no rule.

I mean for me, it’s also not sustainable. That’s what I’ve noticed So I’ve been trying to figure out how do I balance my [00:17:00] health stuff? And so I did want to get your advice on it. We’re Like, I did it for 30 days, and I think that’s the problem with health is that you can read any book and some gimmicks about doing green eating, only eat green shit for a month.

I always joke my mom does the watermelon diet. She does a watermelon for 30 days, and then the next month she eats fucking pizza and burgers and burritos and she complains about it. 

Mike Matthews: Gains weight back and so forth. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, so the sustainability isn’t there. Which is where my frustration with the book was, like one, the binging was too much for me and the sustainability is do I want to just never have fruit and milk for the rest of my life again?

Not really. I like fruit. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Fruit 

Noah Kagan: is great. 

Mike Matthews: Fruit is one of the more, that’s like a staple nutritious food that we should all be eating is a few servings of fruit a day in addition to vegetables. 

Noah Kagan: So let me get your take on it. So I did a three day fast just as an experiment. My friend said he didn’t and it was good.

And so I’ve been trying to experiment different things. How do you like it? So I’m on a one day, I’m doing a 5 p. m. rule today. I experiment with different ones and see how I can incorporate them and if it makes a difference. So it’s like I read your article, then I try stuff out or I try other things out and I’m like that didn’t really make a difference.

This [00:18:00] did so forth. So the fast one, though, what’s been interesting is I felt like my, the science of it, but it felt like my metabolism subsequently when I start reintroduce food after three days. So you did a three 

Mike Matthews: day, you did like a 72 hour? 

Noah Kagan: I did a 72 hour one and then I was talking with, do you know John Somish, Simple Programmer?

He’s a YouTube guy and he’s really into fitness and coding as well. And he was saying, he had a simple rule, which I liked. He’s I just don’t eat till five. And I’m like, what do you mean? He’s and he works out all the time. He’s I just run my day and at five, I can pretty much more or less eat what I want.

Because like how many 

Mike Matthews: calories in one fucking meal until you just want to throw up? Exactly. 

Noah Kagan: And so I was like, that’s actually an interesting way of doing it. So I’ve been experimenting with fasting and what is a good way of incorporating? Is it like the 5 2 diet? Or is it one day fast, six days off or every day just do 5 p.

m.? What’s your, because it feels like that’s something I keep hearing more and more about it in a year or six months. It’d be like, Oh, you got to fast one day a week. And that’s the new trend. Yeah. 

Mike Matthews: So a few things on, in terms of metabolism, like your metabolism definitely ramps up the longer you fast.

I haven’t read the [00:19:00] research on it in quite some time because I wrote like an in depth article on intermittent fasting for Legion, but it was like over a year ago. So I want to say somewhere around the 36 to 40 hour mark is when you see market rises in growth hormone and things, which makes sense because your body’s telling you like Yo, motherfucker, go get me food.

Go, move, do something. I don’t want to just starve to death, so physiologically it makes sense that we would see that reaction. But the unfortunate thing is you have to fast for a rather long period of time to really see those effects, which is not, Ideal from a protein muscle protein balance perspective, because we know that somewhere around the 18 or sorry, the 16 to 18 hour mark is when muscle breakdown rates also start to rise and eventually they do taper off.

But for people that are very much concerned about their body composition and are trying to maximize muscle and strength gain, that’s not ideal. Of course. So that’s why, for example, Martin Burkans lean gains is a 16 hour fast followed by an eight hour feeding window. That’s why Martin set it up that way and super smart dude and understands the science of fasting better than I do.

And really, and it [00:20:00] makes sense based on what I’ve read. So that’s one thing to consider. That though is not like a major concern of yours, then, there also are some potential health benefits of longer fasts and I’ve written about those and they’re. mainly, like we know from disease research.

But it’s also, there is a good chance that you know it can help the immune system kind of reset and clean itself out, so to speak. And so I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong. Also, again, looking at it from the evolutionary perspective, there was a time when There was no fucking 5 2 diet.

It was like, we’re wandering around trying to find food for three days. Yeah, now we have some food and we’re going to binge on that shit so we can gain some fat so we can make it through the next, little fast. So it would make sense that our body would be able to, it would be adapted to that type of thing.

So I think if you want to, the best reason to fast is if you enjoy it. I honestly think that’s the best. If it makes your if it increases diet adherence, if it makes it easier for you to stick to your diet and by that, keep your calories and your macros where you [00:21:00] want them to be on a week to week basis and working that back to why do you want your calories and macros to be there?

Are you trying to gain muscle? Are you trying to just maintain, are you trying to just feel good or are you trying to gain weight? Just gain, lose weight. What are you trying to do? That’s really the reason to fast. If you were again if you were to care most about body composition, I would say Martin Burkhand system is it’s great.

For that reason, it’s good. But there’s also the, is something we said, and I’ve written about this. It’s on MFL. And if you search for protein timing, you’ll find it, but there, there is a really good argument. And there’s a bit of research also that indicates that strictly for the purposes of building muscle, having protein, having about 30 to 40 grams of protein every three to four hours is probably optimal.

And it’s not that’s like super important, but I would say that’s important among bodybuilders, people that like their, that’s their bread and butter is like how fucking jacked can they [00:22:00] get? And that’s why you have professional bodybuilders that wake up in the middle of the night to fucking eat protein.

That sounds nonsensical. But it’s actually not like physiologically speaking, it’s smart and not that we all should be doing that. But I also, I just throw that caveat out there whenever I’m talking about fasting, just because people should know that over the long term.

I would say that eating protein more frequently, again, it doesn’t have to be like fucking eight small meals a day or anything, but if you play that, if you play that out, if you’re talking about five servings or so of protein a day and that there are moderately sized servings, and I explained in the article why the serving size and why the frequency that’s probably better over time for gaining muscle and strength.

Now. We know just, just empirically speaking that people can gain plenty of muscle and strength following intermittent fasting diet. So it’s totally fine if you want to do that. And so that kind of then circles back around to the protocol I would say that is is best for you and what do you enjoy the most is probably the one that’s the best.

to go with. And [00:23:00] ideally it wouldn’t have you fasting for three days, though. That’s why again, most in the bodybuilding world, most people that are fasting are following a lean gains type of protocol or are doing like a one, a 24 hour fast every week kind of thing. But you won’t find very many people following like ADF where, alternate day fasting or five to you won’t find very many people trying to fast for 48 plus hours in, in the bodybuilding scene.

Noah Kagan: That’s interesting. No, because I definitely want bigger arms. I like having bigger arms and bigger chest. It’s also I noticed the fast, it helped my metabolism. It felt like it helped my metabolism. I was like, all right how can I incorporate that in a healthy way and yeah, in sustainably.

Mike Matthews: Now what do you mean? Like you felt like it helped your metabolism? What did you notice? 

Noah Kagan: I restarted re I started eating and then the next few days I just, I didn’t overcompensate, but I was like, I just drank and I ate. And then. Day four or five, I was weighing myself and I’m like, how do I still weigh very, I still weigh this almost the same amount and I didn’t really add a lot more exercise or a lot more gym time.

Mike Matthews: Yeah. But that’s how it should be though. [00:24:00] Like your body, you has, a pretty complex system that uses to regulate appetite and it’s it’s goal is homeostasis. Like it doesn’t want to gain or lose weight. It really actually just wants to stay the same. If you’re, if your endocrine system is working the way it should, and I guess it’s also other things involved in your gut and blah, blah, blah.

But if everything is working the way it should, You should be able to just eat intuitively and maybe with some loose guidelines like I’m going to eat a bit of protein in each meal and I’m going to have some vegetables and I’m going to have some fruit and it’s not just going to be like super processed, super calorically dense bullshit food, then, you should be able to just eat on feel and not gain or lose weight.

Noah Kagan: What are you following right now? So I get one thing. What are you following? I guess I’m curious. What’s the last thing you’ve changed in your diet or in your nutrition, 

Mike Matthews: right? So I am a creature of habit, like in general, like I’m big on routine in my life. Like I wake up at the same time every day I go to the, I have my shit like the way I like it.

You know what I mean? And so I’m very much like that with my diet. [00:25:00] Also, it works well for me because I like to eat the foods that I like. I can eat the same stuff every day for quite a long time before I even feel like changing anything because I legitimately enjoy it every time I eat it. So what’s an 

Noah Kagan: example of a day?

Mike Matthews: So I’m going to tell you right now. So like I, before I go to the gym, I have a scoop of whey and I have a banana like 30 minutes before just to have some protein and carbs. Cause obviously I go to the gym early in the morning, first thing. And then I’ll come here. to the office after I work out.

And usually within 30 minutes or an hour or so, I’ll have two scoops of, we have a vegan protein. And so I’ll do two scoops of that, one or two scoops of that. I might change that to yogurt just cause I don’t want to get too many of my, too much of my protein from fucking powders.

But regardless, I have some protein When I get here, then I also have an apple, just have a little bit more carbs. And then my lunch is a salad, which is just like lettuce and spinach and cucumbers and chicken and some cheese and shit. And I’ll use I dunno, maybe four tablespoons of a lower fat kind of dressing, like five grams of fat per two tablespoons.

So whatever, [00:26:00] like 10, 12 grams of fat with the salad. And then I’ll have either, so I’ll have some yogurt again, 30 or 40 grams of protein or protein powder around now, usually, actually, depending on what I had in the morning. If I had the yogurt in the morning, I’ll do the powder later or vice versa.

And another end, It’s usually some What kind of yogurt? Like 

Noah Kagan: Greek yogurt kind of thing? Yeah, I like Greek. Low sugar. 

Yeah. I like Faya. The 0 percent is good. I put that Sometimes I’ll mix that with protein powder. I find that really good. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, same. I’ll do the same thing. I also, dude, I tried this shit last night called Skyr.

It’s like some Icelandic shit. S K Y R. Oh. It’s good. Yeah, 

Noah Kagan: it’s like Siggy’s. Have you ever had Siggy’s? 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, but I didn’t like Siggy’s. This is a brand called Icelandic, and I just was grocery shopping and I was like, Oh, what the fuck? I’ll try that. And I like it. It’s like a, it’s different. It’s creamy.

It’s creamier than Greek yogurt, but it’s no fat. It’s two grams of fat for 17 grams of protein. 

Noah Kagan: You like this? The taste of this was better than Siggy’s 

Mike Matthews: for you? Yeah. I liked this one better than Siggy’s. Yeah. And, so that’s my afternoon little snack, [00:27:00] and then dinner, I have usually about 6 to 7 ounces of chicken usually, or it can be ground turkey sometimes, just some sort of like meat type of protein, and I have 3 or 4 servings of vegetables these days, I make a vegetable medley, so I just want something one pot, I don’t want, I don’t want to take the time to make an elaborate meal or anything. I want something simple that I can just fucking throw in the oven and then come back 30 minutes later and eat it. You know what I mean? So it’ll be like brussel sprouts and onions and garlic and tomato and mushrooms and just a bunch of vegetables that I like.

And then a few hours later, I’ll usually have a cup to a cup and a half of oatmeal. So this is like 10 p. m. at night, which is also just good for sleeping. 

Noah Kagan: Oh, that’s interesting. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. I just do it because I like to eat something later at night. Like I eat, I like to actually eat a bit more of my calories later in the day.

That’s just how I prefer it. But I also like oatmeal because. It’s eating, I go to bed around 11 and I read for about 30 minutes and then go to sleep. Like one of the things that can wake you up is if your blood sugar levels get too low because then cortisol levels go up and that wakes you [00:28:00] up.

And if it doesn’t wake you up, it can fuck with your sleep cycles. If you haven’t eaten in a many hours before going to bed, it depends on how well your body can regulate its blood sugar levels, but that can fuck with your sleep, which is why research shows that having like a lower GI, like a slower burning, a meal with slower burning carbs, not, you don’t want too much because that actually can go the other way and cause like indigestion and wake you up, but like a moderate amount of lower.

slower burning carbs an hour to an hour and a half before going to bed that can help keep your blood sugar levels stable while you’re sleeping. And I’m all about like sleep efficiency because I don’t like having to sleep. So I want to sleep as little as I have to basically. So I like do little things to try to sleep is cause it really, what matters is actually thought about that.

Noah Kagan: Everyone’s talking about how do I sleep as much as possible to feel refreshed. 

Mike Matthews: No, it’s all about sleep quality. It’s about sleep cycles. It’s about deep sleep. It’s about your body needs three to four full sleep [00:29:00] cycles to feel. That’s what the bodies need, right? To to feel refreshed and feel rested.

And those sleep cycles, generally if everything is working properly, they last about an hour and a half. You can do the math and that’s why like it’s most people unless there’s something else fucking wrong But physically speaking most people should be able to go on Six to six and a half hours of sleep and be totally fine.

I’ve been doing it for fucking six years now but that has to be really good sleep like You have to fall asleep quickly and you have to, what can happen is there are different things that can cause you like, for example, room temperature matters a lot. You want your room to be cold because if your body temperature rises too much, it may not even wake you up, but it can fuck with the sleep cycle.

So your brain needs to, cycle through different stages while you sleep. And the most important stage in terms of Rejuvenation is deep sleep, which is what they call it. You can fucking track it with those random apps or whatever, right? That’s where your body’s like comatose, like you don’t move at all.

And so that’s the key is making sure that you get enough [00:30:00] deep sleep. So like I know just from using those little sleep tracking apps on six to six and a half hours of sleep, I’ll generally get three to four hours of deep sleep. Maybe not four, three, three and a half is, and, I know like Jeremy, he’s tracked his sleep before and.

Eight hours of sleep sometimes would get him less than three hours of deep sleep. 

So that’s so you have oatmeal, what, like an hour before you go to bed? About an hour or so. I have a cup to cup and a half and I, a cup of oatmeal dry. Yeah, I like to eat. You just eat the oatmeal dry.

No, fuck that. I cook it, but i’m saying it’s a cup dry. It’s not a, it’s not a cup. 

Noah Kagan: Do you put anything in it? 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, I put some maple syrup and I’ll put I used to do this whole baked thing. I’d bake fucking a bunch of fruit in it and make it this whole thing, which is actually delicious, but it just takes too much time.

So now I’m just like instant oatmeal and I, and reminds me of when I was a kid. So those are 

Noah Kagan: good. Yeah. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. So 

Noah Kagan: dude, a whole cup of it. That’s actually really interesting. I, it’s funny you say that. So when I was doing the 70 72 hour fast recently, I couldn’t sleep. My body wouldn’t let me.

My body’s yo, you got to go find some food. 

Mike Matthews: Exactly. And that’s what you want. Obviously you want to have the opposite. So [00:31:00] that’s why you hear about no blue light, at night. And cause you want not working out at night is worse. Working out in the morning is like known to improve sleep quality because not having caffeine, anywhere six hours, in before you go to sleep because, cortisol is what wakes you up in the morning.

So the morning your body, your corals levels are on the rise. That’s the time where you want to go out, expose yourself to the sun, do exercise, have caffeine, all the stuff that raises cortisol levels. Do that, when it’s in conjunction with your body’s natural rhythm. But then from there, you want your cortisol levels to be coming down.

And you want them to be at their what would it be? Nate, Nadir, I guess yeah, Nadir, how do you pronounce it? The lowest point. N A D I R, however you pronounce that, but the lower you have the apex is the top and nadir is the lowest point you want your cortisol levels to be at their lowest when it’s time to go to sleep and you don’t want them to go up when you’re sleeping.

So Sean Stevenson has a good book on this called Sleep Smarter. He’s a smart dude. I’ve had him on the podcast and he talks about some of this stuff. But yeah. There are a lot of little simple tweaks you can make [00:32:00] and, on the podcast he talks about, like he works with a lot of executives and shit and people that are like, fuck sleep, dude, get, I want to sleep as little as possible without sacrificing my health.

What do I do? And he works with them and he said that he’s gotten a lot of people down to six and six to six and a half. They just, it’s a lot of little things, even pillow choice and blah, blah, blah. There’s some fascinating research though. Even some shit I hadn’t heard about when on the podcast, like he said, there was one study where they took subjects and.

You had the control, the people that are just doing their normal thing. And then you had people that he said it was a light about this big and it was on the back of their knee. And that was enough to disrupt their sleep cycles, like throughout the night they had a light that big just in the back of their knee.

And so like the body is super sensitive to light and so that means that for example you want your bedroom to be pitch black. You don’t want any light from fucking any electronics from even blinking lights on like a whatever TV box or anything you want pitch black. So yeah, and there’s also you can get sound conditioners [00:33:00] because there can be sounds that, we’re just in the environment, especially if you like live in a city.

Yeah, it’s pretty cool. And the good, what’s nice about it is you can see quick results with that kind of shit. And then it’s for the average person, it’s like gaining two hours a day. Like how huge is that to and not no sacrifice. Like you don’t feel sluggish, you don’t feel tired.

You don’t have any negative there’s no, indications that you are sleep deprived at all 

Noah Kagan: Did I dig that I’m gonna check out his book sleep smarter is his book Yeah, I just found the book. That’s cool. Huh. So come back to your book though How do you make it stand out like obviously you have a head start with an audience?

Yeah, I think about it just for myself and everyone listening, you know How do you find that angle that people will like and it’ll be you know, the next what’s the first health book? Think of when you think of a successful health book or self help book 

Mike Matthews: Self help I don’t know, Think and Grow Rich, right?

Noah Kagan: Is that the first one that comes to mind? 

Mike Matthews: Oh, dude, that shit has sold, I don’t know, 200 million copies. Has it really? Probably, yeah. Wow. And that’s the first one. I wouldn’t [00:34:00] mind, I wouldn’t mind writing a book that sells 200 million copies by the time I die. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, that’s wild. What about that book mattered to you?

Or why do you, why did you think of that one first? 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, just because, again, it’s like one of those classic, That’s, it’s how to win friends and influence people, think and grow rich. But yeah, there’s a handful that just destroy and continue to destroy and we’ll probably just destroy for as long as books are being read 

Noah Kagan: by people.

The drones will read the book soon. Don’t worry. So how do you make sure your book is in 1 million sales? Obviously you have. You know your audience already. It’s interesting and it’s interesting that you would want to talk to your audience to understand more of like their psychographics and demographics because you think by now you would know that.

Mike Matthews: Yeah but this is I think that’s a dangerous assumption to make especially I think it’s in, in some ways, probably something that I’ve done it. It’s been an iterative process since I first published bigger, leaner, stronger, and I published some more stuff. And by emailing with a lot of people and reading every Amazon review and going through everything, I’ve been able to pick up a lot of information that I could have actually gotten if I would have done the interview processes [00:35:00] or done the interview process.

Initially, like I could have avoided some mistakes and I had to learn them through actual feedback from people But at least I gave a shit enough about feedback to get there so In this case though again, because this book is a bit different. It’s not going to be I have a couple other books that are more just mechanical or just I don’t know obvious kind of safer plays like i’m going to do another cookbook It’s going to be like a quick and easy type cookbook And I have a few other ideas that are more just obvious.

Yes, it’s going to sell well. Yes, it’s needed, but I want to do this because well, like I want to, for a few reasons, one, I want to produce something that can appeal to people. regardless of what type of exercise they’re into. So like anyone that’s into working out at all, like I want this to be a book that they can get something from and obviously to do that, it can’t be then just about, Hey, what’s a good way to build muscle?

What’s a good way to get strong? What’s a good way to lose fat. All that stuff [00:36:00] narrows it down. Or it can’t just be about cardio or weightlifting or, calisthenics or whatever. But I think that there’s a common denominator there. Like what take everyone that’s into working out at all.

What’s one thing they can never get enough of. And this is also that is something that’s a deep emotional need as opposed to just more intellectual. How do I do this? And that’s motivation. It’s, having the energy and the will to fucking do what you’re, what you’re supposed to do.

You know what I mean? There’s, we have so much information out there at our fingertips. It’s not the problem now isn’t really, what should I do? It’s making that emotional connection with someone where not only do they explain what to do, but they also make you want to do it and they, inspire you to fucking take action and get going.

I want, again, this book to focus on that element. of a fitness, which also of course overlaps into other areas of life. And so for that book, I don’t want to assume that again, it’s dangerous. I think from a marketing [00:37:00] perspective to write the, that the book just for me, that’s, I think a mistake.

I need to, I want to have an avatar Of I’m writing it for this person is, my, I know that my key demos are like 25 to 34, a bit more men than women, college educated, making good money. So I have a good amount of demo demographic information, but I wanted to know psychologically where are these people at in their lives.

I don’t know if you’re interested I’ll tell you some of the questions, like the questions that I was asking if you’re curious. I guess 

Noah Kagan: I’m curious also, you said that you had to change your original books based on feedback that you could have saved time by just talking to people.

What’s the example? 

Mike Matthews: Shit, I’ve made quite a few changes. Let’s see if there’s any big, there were a lot of little specific things where like I didn’t do a good enough job explaining something. It didn’t quite make sense. And so people are asking follow up questions. And so maybe that’s not a great example of something I could tease out through interviews.

That’s just a legit, that’s just part of the process of putting stuff out there and getting feedback. See the last round of big changes was the second edition. And that was like over a year ago. So I honestly don’t remember off the top of [00:38:00] my head a good examples of that. Okay. Unfortunately, but there were a few things where I remember thinking if I had spoken to to, even just 10 or 15 of my target readership, 10, 10, 15 of these people before I wrote the book, I would have done that differently.

I would have known now. Fortunately, I made, I did a lot more right than wrong, which is why the books are, have done so well. It’s not like they were, it’s not like bigger than your stronger was a piece of shit. And then, through feedback and whatever, I finally made it into something that can sell like, no, it took off before I even made any big changes.

It went from zero to several thousand copies a month without me even trying, 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. And then what have you found out or what surprised you during this interview process for this upcoming book? That’s it. That was my first 

Mike Matthews: interview for, yeah, so it’s my first, it’s my first one.

And so I want to do again, I want 15. I sent an email out to my list and explain people, I would like to interview some people and specifically I wanted people that read these types of books and then I sent them to a Google form to ask some questions, demographic, and then get a few things on like [00:39:00] how many of these types of books have they read, what are their favorites and why, just so I can get an idea of who these people are and then choose accordingly.

So I’m going to talk to a few people from each age, like 25 to 34, let’s just say 20 Let me do it. I don’t know, 20 to mid 30s and then 35 and on type of thing. And then speak to a few men, a few women. Also I chose some people that seem to have interesting life circumstances, like more traditional.

They have a white collar type job, they have a family and so forth, ranging to like the dude I spoke to today is in his early twenties and he’s a freelance copywriter and he like travels and shit. He just has an unusual type of life. And has read a fucking million of these kinds of books, so it was an interesting conversation.

Noah Kagan: Hey, I’m just curious, because I feel like with, what’s the angle of this book? I feel like with all the, as I was saying earlier, every health book has its angle. Or is this more of the health book for general? No, 

Mike Matthews: again, I want it to be, I want it to very much be about motivation. I want this to be a book that motivates you.

So there’s two parts of it that’s going to motivate you to want to work out and continue working out. And then [00:40:00] also how I’ve structured it so far, which this may change based on what comes out of these interviews, but what I’ve structured so far in terms of so that’s the sizzle. I’m working on the proposal when it’s ready.

If you’re interested, I’ll send it to you. 

Noah Kagan: What were some of the questions you asked? You said you had some of the questions. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. So the questions are what in your life would you most like to improve right now? And then why? Okay. What are the top three things that you feel are most holding you back from doing this?

What kinds of things have you done to try to overcome these obstacles? How did it go? What helped? What didn’t? Why do you think the things helped? What made the unhelpful things unhelpful? What would your life ideally look like right now? So paint me a picture as vividly as you can, including work, finances, relationships, family, kids, friends, whatever.

How would your life look like? What does this picture look like five years from now? What does this picture have you thought about? And it’s also, I was interesting, I want to know, do people even think about that? This guy really hasn’t really thought much about that’s he looked at it as this is his next five years.

So after that, I guess it’s just it’s the pinnacle of what he just laid [00:41:00] out. And then I asked, so how, what does this picture look like 10 years from now? And in his case, he hadn’t even thought about 10 years from now, which is good to know. What kinds of things make you immediately interested in a self development or self help or self transformation book?

What catches your attention? What makes that strong first impression? What kind of things make you immediately disinterested in a book like this? What turns you off immediately and says, this isn’t the book for me? What are you most hoping to get out of self development? So these types of books, like what are the, what is the, what are the big benefits?

What are you really trying to achieve when you read these books? And what do you just generally like about them? It could be the length of them. It could be the tone. It could be the fucking title. I don’t care. Just what if what’s off? What are the things you’d say? I generally like if it’s like this, and then what do you generally dislike about these books? And again, it can be very broad. So those are the questions I came up with. 

Noah Kagan: Holy shit. People answered 

Mike Matthews: all that. I told you it was a long, that’s why it was a long fucking conversation. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, I can imagine. So one thing I’ve noticed is that I’ve really changed my diet over the years and I’ve evolved it in [00:42:00] my exercise.

I’ve evolved it. But I think lately I’ve noticed I’m a little bit at a low where I’m, I don’t really have a fitness plan. I don’t have a fitness goal. Like I want a six pack and I don’t have a plan. There’s was it strength, strong training or some shit like that? Or the five, five or five by five.

Yep. There’s another one, Pometo or something like that, that I was trying. 

Mike Matthews: Okay. 

Noah Kagan: And I’ll do it for It’s not pimento. It’s like a push pull system, and it’s just like how do you not get bored with the gym and diet? Because there’s certain people that seem to not get bored with it But I feel like I’m and I don’t think I’m unique where I’m like fuck I’m tired of always the same kind of diet or I’m tired of the same type of gym 

Mike Matthews: Yeah.

Yeah. That’s a good question. For me personally, obviously now it’s part of my job, so that’s part of it, but even if it weren’t, I don’t think that would really change anything because you’re talking about, okay, goals and why though? What’s the purpose? Why? Yes, you could, let’s say you could set a goal and say, cool, I want to increase my whole body strength.

I want to increase my squat bench and deadlift. Right now I’m at X pounds and I want to get it. You can play a game. It’s easy to say Okay. What are you at right now? Add up. If you add up your one rep maxes of squat, [00:43:00] bench, deadlift, and you have a number, and if you’re saying, cool, the game is to get that to a thousand pounds, right?

Total. You got it. That’s pretty fucking strong. Or even if it’s, even if you dial it back a little bit and say 800 pounds or whatever, and that’s the game. One, just doing that I think is better than just going, it’s the difference between training and exercise, right? So you can, training is goal oriented.

You’re working towards something. Exercise is you just go and fucking do workouts and I’ve experienced both. So I actually, I know where you’re coming from, where exercise for me is boring where I, it’s not I guess maybe I have good self discipline and good self control, so I still do it.

It’s not like I’m going to skip workouts just because it’s not very interesting, but training. Is far more motivating and interesting than exercising is. And with training comes that where it’s like, it could be. Again, it could be a strength goal. It could be a body composition goal where it, so maybe it’s more tied into a look.

And that’s where I’m at right now, where I want to improve my physique. And so my [00:44:00] training is more around the areas that I feel need more improvement on my body. So that’s a good place to start where a lot of people, they’re just exercising and they’re doing it. For whatever reason, maybe they know it’s healthy.

They know it’s the right thing to do, but they’re not quantifying their progress. They’re not really getting feedback. It’s like standard stuff from flow where you can’t really get into that flow state without. Making it clear what you’re trying to do and tracking your progress toward it and getting feedback and continually iterating on it and improving and trying to get, just keep that moving toward the goal.

But then there’s also for me. There’s a bit of the purpose side of things of why am I doing this? It’s not, I’m not, it’s not for girls. It’s not, I’m not like some single dude running around just trying to fuck everyone. You know what I mean? Which is why a lot of guys get into working out.

That’s why I first started lifting weights when I was 17, 18 is I just was like I like girls and girls like muscle. So I’m just gonna get some more muscle. But for me, I think there’s it’s a bit of vanity, of course, like I like to look in the mirror and [00:45:00] like what I see and that means something to me.

And it, there’s, if I’m again, if I haven’t really reflected on this person all that much to be honest, but I would say there’s a bit of self confidence as well. Being in good shape definitely just gives you that. I think people perceive you differently and I think in a way you perceive yourself differently.

Yes. This is one of those things that you can’t inherit. You can’t steal, you can’t borrow, you can’t buy which can’t be said about a lot of things. And it represents generally admirable qualities of, discipline and work and personal responsibility and, it fits into, I don’t know how you like where you’re at on things like this, but for me, I’m more interested.

As in myself individually, I’m more interested in the person that I am, like my values and my behaviors than the things that I have, whether that’s money or possessions, I actually don’t derive much satisfaction at all from making [00:46:00] money or having things a little bit, but it’s, Without the rest, without the more, the deeper, more satisfying stuff, it would mean nothing to me.

I’d be just straight fucking depressed. I don’t care how much money I had. I don’t care how many multi million dollar houses I had. None of that shit would mean anything to me if I wasn’t happy with who I am as a person, and I didn’t feel like I’m improving my character and being a better person.

Moving for me also like a big thing is mastery really, and specifically my, the field I’ve chosen is writing just in particular. And it’s something obviously the nature of mastery. You can never say you fully mastered anything. Like I will die and not being a, to some degree an unfulfilled or unrealized if we’re talking about Maslow’s pyramid writer.

But I just liked the idea that I can choose one thing and say. This is my one thing in, in this area of my life, this work and career and what I’m doing for money and spending a lot of my time on is I want to [00:47:00] become as good of a writer as I can. And that then is just like what I’m choosing to pour my time and energy and my spirit into it from again, trying to just value mastery over just having things.

And so for me, working out fits into that in that. It supports me physically, it, it supports my physical energy levels. It supports my mental energy levels. It allows me to sleep less than I would have to sleep otherwise, which gives me more time to do the things I want to do.

And that energy stuff, a lot of people, I think they discount the importance of that and that it’s not about, if we’re looking at, productivity or just enjoyment of life, it’s there’s quantity of time, but then there’s quality of time. And I think. Quality of time is just as important if not more important than quantity and you know that from fucking just working and you know You can if you’re like on point you can get done What would might otherwise normally take eight hours and two hours just because you’re fully there flow, 

Noah Kagan: yeah, with I like your point about mastery and [00:48:00] also the idea of like you’re working your training versus working out. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah 

Noah Kagan: So training is you’re going in some direction I mean for you what’s the direction because I will agree when I’ve had hey I want to get bigger arms and I spent all my time around that or I wanted to six pack and I spent all my time Around that it actually helps align everything else up in life that I’ve noticed So as I’m like, oh, yeah, wow, it actually other parts of life are getting better It’s as I’m singing out loud, it’s Oh yeah, it’s a good reminder.

Dumbass. 

Mike Matthews: That’s 

Noah Kagan: it. 

Mike Matthews: That’s something that’s going to be in the book. Just that concept of like training versus exercise. There’s a difference here, but then there’s also on a meta level, this extends beyond just, we’re not just talking about building biceps now because just that if you can approach other areas of your life in the same way of what’s the goal here and why am I doing it?

Why does this matter to me? Before you ever do anything, first step back and be like, What am I trying to do? And why do I give a shit about this? Why does this matter? And if you want to even zoom out more, I think you can look at like your life on the whole. What are your [00:49:00] big goals? Not just for your, for again, just for work and money and shit.

But, we have, I think that we have the potential to have however big of a sphere of influence as we want for me again, where I’m trying myself to, to push myself, my own comfort zone, so to speak in that way, where it’d be very easy for me. And I’m sure for you as well, to we don’t have to work as hard as we do.

I if all we cared about was just, living for our own pleasure, you don’t have to build a big business. You could just cruise and you’d be like, cool, I’m here. I’ll just fucking do whatever. I’m assuming just given the success that you’ve had, I could just yeah, work as little as I wanted to actually and make more money than I know what to do with, but I wouldn’t be happy with myself.

Noah Kagan: Dude. It’s totally interesting. You say that a lot of other guys at Facebook when I was there as well made, hundreds of millions, if not billions. And I’ve seen a few of them actually struggle with it because a lot of people think, oh, you’re gonna get all this money. Everything will be solved.

And they’re actually, it’s not. They’re just, they’re like what do I do now? How did 

Mike Matthews: that play out? Like 

Noah Kagan: they’re still going through it, trying to figure out what to [00:50:00] do next. After you worked there five years, you’ve got all the money that imagine that you wanted. And then you’re like what do I do now?

And yeah, you can travel for a year and two years and I think what I’m going through and a lot of people are going through is and as you said yourself, like how do you find work and things that you’re, you’d work on for free and that could sustain you and fulfill you 

Mike Matthews: for some 

Noah Kagan: period of time.

And I go back and forth on that. There’s some times I’m like, Oh, this is everything I want to work on. And I think the hard part is the days where you don’t want to go to the gym or you don’t want to feel like doing the work and I think you know the answer to it. Those are the days you got to go. 

Mike Matthews: Yes.

Yeah. I totally agree. Totally agree. Totally 

Noah Kagan: agree. Unfortunately, those are the days, and so like the gym, I think your point is like find something that you’re working towards. Like I actually wrote this down, I thought what you said was so great what goal health wise do I have? And then I was thinking in terms of business as well, what goals do I have personally that I want and, project out forward in six months, 12 months.

Okay. What would I want it to look like? I think what you’re saying with relationships is the same concept of so many people are just wait for someone to come along and they’re like, Oh this is good. I’ll just take this [00:51:00] versus what kind of person do I want? What kind of business do I want?

What kind of health do I want? And then trying to see, all right I want this in the future. How do I line up things now? So I get that better future. 

Mike Matthews: Yep. And then why I think it’s always important, that like the Toyota five wise type thing of really getting to the bottom of why, and for me, that’s been a big thing again, finding, cause I feel like that’s what gets you through those tough days.

That’s what, when you didn’t sleep you slept like shit and you don’t really want to go to the gym, you, that there’s a bigger picture here. It’s not just about, again, It’s not just about going and burning some calories and that’s exercise. You move your body, you burn some calories and yes, it has a lot of health benefits and a lot of, it’s great to do but it’s not the same as training.

And I think that applies to a lot of things in life. Like it’s not hard to just stay busy, but busy for what and why, 

Noah Kagan: I think that’s such a good point where a lot of, and this is what I’m actually spending a lot of this week on is how do I become less busy this week or not become, how do I just not go do things like I have to do this and I have to be busy and I have, and so it’s like blocking out [00:52:00] time tomorrow and Wednesday to say, all right I want to think about things and I realized this in companies that you need people to do stuff.

Like you need someone in support and you need someone in marketing and you need a developer and probably standard positions. And then you think about a CEO or someone, running the company, you’re like they’re not sitting at their desk working all day. Why aren’t they working?

And what i’ve realizing and been more aware of As i’ve gotten older and as i’ve grown the company Is that that’s actually where a lot of the bigger value come which is all right What’s the future look like what competitors look like and that’s generally not going to happen when i’m sitting at my computer emailing or facebooking or reading things It’s going to come like reading books or walking or talking to other people about it 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, no, it’s very, I totally agree and I think it’s a very astute observation and something I myself have I think I’ve done a decent job of, at least I’ve been aware of it, although to be honest, most of my time is just whether it’s writing articles or writing books or creating, doing stuff like this that’s the majority of my time, but yes, I think it is very important to Be able to step back and just allow yourself to [00:53:00] think about where you’re at, where you want to go, how are there, I like Peter Thiel’s little 10 X like what is it?

No. It’s yeah, no. So it’s this if, so if you’re to look at, a 10 year, 10 years now, what’s the big hurrah. And how could you get there in six months? And it’s just a mind exercise of, to force you to think outside the box. And how can you do things more efficiently?

And I agree. And that’s also something just that I’ve run across a lot in just reading books and stuff. Like it’s a recurring theme. Theme in books related, particularly to like leadership and building businesses from a CEO’s perspective is exactly that, that the CEO is the dream maker and is the one that’s charting the course and, establishing the overarching strategies and maybe even having a hand in the plans as well, but that is so key that, that top of the Pyramid type of thinking is so key because if you’re, one inch off up there, you can be a fucking mile off down at the [00:54:00] bottom where it’s execution and tactical, 

Noah Kagan: yeah. I think that’s a good way. It’s, one thing I’ve been thinking about with a business general is like, why are you doing it? And to your point what’s that goal that you’re really trying to accomplish and the vision that you’re trying to set out to be like, man, I’d really love to help education or help people with you, like with health 

Mike Matthews: and 

Noah Kagan: motivation.

And for me, a lot of it, it’s like, how do I help people grow their businesses? And that’s where I spend a lot of my time. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. 

Noah Kagan: And do you have 

Mike Matthews: A why, like why help people grow their businesses? 

Noah Kagan: When I look at, when I reflect on the things I’ve done, a lot of it just comes back to seeing a lot of great things out there that I think should get more attention.

And a lot of people don’t know how to actually get their, get the word out about it. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, I like that. And 

Noah Kagan: I don’t really want to help everyone. I think that’s, I think it’s one of these funny things, people are like, yeah, I want to help everyone I love. I’m like, I actually don’t. Especially in your line of 

Mike Matthews: business.

There are some businesses you’d be like, no, I don’t want to help this person. He’s a piece of shit. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, so for me, it comes to, there’s certain businesses that I’m like, man, like your message my friend Tynan’s message. There’s an author I met named Pierce Brown. So sumo. com, it’s like we gave out the tools that we’ve been using to help people get their own [00:55:00] messages out.

Mike Matthews: Totally. Yeah. And I think that’s great. And I think also it’s it’s about some finding something that resonates with you and not being. not worrying about what other people are going to think about it, because it’s, I think it’s very easy to just cut everything down to size and just be like, yeah, who cares?

Like whatever you’re helping people, build a business and then so what? So you’re helping people sell stuff. So what? So you’re helping people make, be happy. So what? They’re just going to die anyway. And I think that kind of shit, that kind of thinking and the people that are inclined toward that are people I just delete from my life because I think that shit is just contagious and it’s just low energy low energy.

There’s just not, I just find that those people aren’t very alive. They’re not the kind of people, and I pulled this from, I think it was 48 laws of power, and it’s one of those things that just stuck with me. That in one of the laws he was talking about I wasn’t particularly this type of person.

I don’t remember. No, it was unlucky people. He was talking about people. So I [00:56:00] think he may have also lumped in like people that are just unlucky that nothing really goes right for them in their life. You know what I mean? And they have a lot more things that go wrong than go right. And sure, they have excuses and this and that and circumstances, and they usually don’t take any responsibility.

It’s usually everything else is it’s the, their environment’s fault. It’s the people’s fault, this, that, but one of the things he was talking about in that book is Those types of people you’ll never be able to really change that they’re there They are like a virus and they take everyone down with them.

They’re like a fucking, vortex or a whirlpool and You there’s no way basically what he was breaking down is there’s no way to be around those people without getting negatively infected By it so You know, that’s also something that I’ve done is I’m very picky with the people that I allow in my inner circles, so to speak because I have, again, I’ve experienced this firsthand that some people just suck the life out of you and then you start losing your wise and your goals, just, they don’t really have that [00:57:00] luster anymore.

And. Your purposes just seem, again, like who really cares. And it’s just that apathetic type of nothing really matters anyway. I hate that shit. Do you ever, do you work out alone 

Noah Kagan: most of the time? 

Mike Matthews: I, I have for a long time and now I have someone I work out with who comes, who’s willing to come with me early in the morning.

Noah Kagan: What have you noticed since you started working out with someone else? 

Mike Matthews: I like it more. Absolutely. 

Noah Kagan: Oh, that’s interesting. Why is that? 

Mike Matthews: It’s more enjoyable. Just because, there’s one, there’s just the mechanical there. Like you have a spot, you have someone to just push you and you’re watching them, he also trains pretty hard and pretty intense.

So it’s cool. Like he’s doing it, it’s and also because of the way that I train, I’m spending at least for my heavier sets, I’m resting for two or three minutes and when I’m by myself, I actually just read, like I have my Kindle app on my phone and I just read in between sets and that’s fine, but.

I prefer, I like, I don’t have much social time in my life really because I’m pretty much just working and then I spend time with my family and that’s pretty much it. And I spend [00:58:00] some time in the gym. So my gym time also doubles as my social time, which is nice. I enjoy talking with, he’s one, he actually works with me.

So we work out together and we have a lot of similar views on things and he’s fun to talk to. So it fulfills a little bit of my, Need for a social life somewhat. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, at the gym for me is actually where I socialize with one of my buddies, Jr. It’s like our time to hang out at work.

Yeah. One thing that I was struggling with though, is that I started just resenting the gym where I’m like, okay, I’m going to this place again, where it’s just a jail and how do I make it like a better second home? 

Mike Matthews: I would say one, and this is again, speaking from experience it sounds silly, but I was going to a different gym here that I just didn’t like.

I couldn’t tell you why. I just didn’t like the gym. It wasn’t that I was just losing motivation to train and whatever. I didn’t like the vibe. I didn’t like being there. I just wanted to do my workouts and leave. And so now I switched gyms to one that I just like more. It’s nicer. Yeah.

And it’s smaller and there’s not as many people and the people that are there that [00:59:00] work there are super nice, which is, again, I just, I enjoy being in that space more. And so I think that’s one simple thing that everyone That’s a really 

Noah Kagan: good tip. That’s so stupidly obvious. I’m like, yeah, why don’t I just try another one?

Mike Matthews: That’s that, that, that actually helped for me. And then it’s having someone to work out with that you enjoy spending time with that. That’s a big bonus or a big boost. And again, that has helped me. And then also it’s the stuff we were talking about previously, I think where you’re there. Like for a good reason where it’s not you’re just you’re not thinking that dude You could just be fucking doing some emails right now and get that or you could be doing some work or you could just be Like, maybe taking some time to do something else Who knows whatever but where instead you can feel like this is a good use of your time This is exactly what you should be doing And here’s why and if someone were to challenge you on it, like why are you here?

What are you trying to accomplish? Why does that matter to you? You’d have good answers that, make you want to be there. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. That’s good. So what’d you notice about your new gym? 

Mike Matthews: Again, I just, so the specific things that I like about it more [01:00:00] are it’s cleaner in general which is, and it’s just nicer.

Everything is maintained and taken care of, which I actually, I don’t mind if it’s if it has that old school dungeon bodybuilder. Jim type of feel I like that, but this other one wasn’t that it was just like a shittily maintained corporate blah Jim right where the there’s just you know Kind of messes and it was just dirty and just not well maintained like the people didn’t really give a fuck But then also maybe it’s the people that I was surrounded by which I’m not like a person who runs around judging people So again, I’m just guessing.

Why did I not like being there? I don’t have that actually a great, I can’t say, Oh, it’s because, there was this group of 10 people that were always hogging all of the fucking equipment and being lousy, being loud and why I don’t care about that, but sweating on everything or it wasn’t like that.

I just, there was some fucking, I don’t know what that I didn’t like and I didn’t really even care to think about it. I just went, I was like, I don’t know why it is, but I’m going to go check out a couple [01:01:00] other gyms. So I went, I ended up at an Equinox that’s close to me where I was just like, this place is nice.

I like being here. Everyone is super nice. And it seems like they actually care. They’re willing to help you. They’ll help you stretch. They’ll still talk to you. And the all the equipment is nice. It’s clean. It’s well maintained. I just liked the vibe. So I was like, yep. Okay. I don’t know. I don’t even have to think about it more than that.

I’m going here now. 

Noah Kagan: Dude, I love that. It’s one of these things someone said before where if you’re not liking your environment, change it. 

Mike Matthews: Yes. 

Noah Kagan: Yes. And find a place that your your environment’s better suited. 

Mike Matthews: I think change of environment can be straight therapeutic depending on the circumstance.

Noah Kagan: No, I completely agree. What, when the last time, what’s the last time that’s happened or what were you thinking 

Mike Matthews: moving? So like I didn’t particularly like the area I was living at in Florida, I liked a few things about it, but on the whole I just didn’t have much to offer in terms of lifestyle and I like.

There were quite a few things that, again, I wasn’t on, it’s not like I felt Oh, it was making me unhappy. It’s just when I actually thought about it and really because I have a condo there and I wanted to buy a house and so started to talk about it with [01:02:00] my wife, Sarah. And I was like, okay, if we’re going to buy a house, we’re probably at least looking, even if we were to say this isn’t our, Final home, we’re looking at three to five years, but it might stretch out.

Maybe that’s what we might be looking at a 10 year commitment, to be here, especially as Linux gets into school and it’d be worse, as he gets older to just pull him out of school. So do we really want to live here? Like, why do we want to live here? What are the pros and cons versus, living somewhere else and what are our criteria?

What in terms of, I think, again, I don’t believe that living in a certain area is going to quote unquote make you happy or radically transform your life just in and of itself. But I think there are, again, back to this employment environment, I think there is something to be said for the emotional and spiritual value you could say of the environment and it does, it is going to have an effect on you and it’s going to have, And this is a kind of a takeaway also from just reading a lot of marketing books that we’re subconsciously influenced by so many different things we don’t even realize that are around us and that are our brains or minds or whatever are [01:03:00] constantly processing below our levels of awareness.

And so again, coming back to the gym, I didn’t like. Who knows why I didn’t like it. There’s a reason why. There’s definitely either, there could probably be five things of why I, I just didn’t like being there. Or maybe it’s ten. I didn’t have to figure them out. I just knew that it’s not me just being weird.

I feel like I’m a pretty well emotionally balanced person. I don’t have, I feel like I’m not like, out of control with irrational behavior and shit. So I just went with it and I was like, yeah, okay, fine. I’m just going to try something else. So similarly though, when I was looking at living in Florida, I was like, yeah, I think it’s fine.

I could stay here and I can always enjoy myself and I just work and I can play golf. I like to do that and I have some friends here and shit, but I feel like I, there’s probably somewhere else I would enjoy living more. And that would for the free time that I do have and when I do want to go out and eat, in a good restaurant, or I do want to go out and do something outdoors.

It’s not always just like the water and the beach, but I can hear, I can go to the mountains. I can go for bike rides through fucking beautiful forests and shit. So in [01:04:00] the end, I moved. So I left Florida and I came to Virginia and it’s, I miss having my family around. It’s nice to see them, see my brothers, see my parents.

And that’s, that was a known downside going into it. But I think on the whole, again, it’s been a very positive experience for me because I genuinely like living here more. Even on my drive home, I was just like, this is nice. This is fucking pretty. You know what I mean? Or if I’m going to spend it, go spend a Saturday doing stuff with my family where we can go do things that you can’t do.

In Florida, it’s not available, at least in the area I was living. And even the, I like, spring is this is a real spring. Spring’s fucking awesome. Fall, fall’s very pretty. All the color’s changing and shit. They don’t have that in Florida. Winter, I don’t mind. It’s a two or three month winter.

It’s not that big of a deal. That’s an example, I think, of a change of environment that has been a little bit therapeutic in a sense for me. 

Noah Kagan: I think for the people listening, it’s more, they’re like I’m not going to move houses just cause Mike moved houses. But I think it’s more even, your office or your weekends or your morning or whatever it is [01:05:00] where you spend 

Mike Matthews: your time, right?

That’s your environment. It’s where you choose to go. What’s your daily, like, where do you go to get coffee? Where do you, yeah. Where do you work? Where do you live? I think there are probably a lot of people listening that are coming up to whether it, It’s not necessarily leaving the state, maybe they’re coming up on a lease on a, or they’re looking at selling their house and there can be a big change even in the same area of finding a place that you really actually like being.

That’s not just, I think that it’s cool to, to accept good enough in certain things in life. I think trying to, Be a perfectionist in every aspect of life is just going to probably drive you crazy. But I think environment is worth the extra time and effort to not just settle for good enough, but really put in the work to try to get it to that where it’s decisively positive.

Same thing with friends and the people around you. 

Noah Kagan: The no, I think that’s a good, it’s just, I think sometimes for myself I just think, Oh, I, this is just a problem and that’s how it is. And I don’t have to remind myself [01:06:00] there’s generally always a solution to it. 

Mike Matthews: I agree. So 

Noah Kagan: to the things that are going on and I have to keep reminding myself, okay, don’t accept it.

Process it. Solve it. Move forward. 

Mike Matthews: I agree. No I do the same thing where basically like I always, I think that no matter what the problem is, there is a solution out there. It’s out there, and there are probably more than one actually, but, all you have to do is somehow get to it. I truly do believe that same thing.

Like when I approaching this book, it’s just a mentality that I have going into it where I know that I’ve, I know I’m onto something with even the things like we’re talking about and you’re taking some notes and stuff, you’re a smart dude. You’re you’re not, I don’t think someone that’s necessarily easily.

It’s not like you’ve never heard you’ve never read a single fucking, you’ve never been exposed to a good idea and you’re like, Oh wow, that cliche that everyone has heard of is so mind blowing to me. But, so I feel like I’m on to something and I’m going at it with the 100 percent like certainty that this book, This perfect book that I [01:07:00] know I know it’s out there and I have confidence that I can get to it and I don’t think I’m there yet with the concept and whatever, but I know that this can become like what Steven Pressfield has done for creatives with with the war of art or what Rotella has done for golf with golf is not a game of perfect.

What Desana has done for. For obstacle racers with Spartan up, what Dan John has done for strength and Olympic strength athletes, Olympic lifters with never let go what Galloway has done for tennis players with the inner game of tennis. This can be done for just the general fitness crowd. And so that’s the way I’m going at it, of this book exists, someone can write this book, and hey, why not me, right?

Yeah, why not? Hey there, it’s Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did and don’t mind doing me a favor, then please do leave a quick review on iTunes or wherever you’re listening from. This [01:08:00] helps other people find their way to the show and learn how to build their best bodies ever as well.

And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then simply subscribe to the podcast and you won’t miss out on new episodes. And if you didn’t like something about the show, then. Definitely shoot me an email at Mike at muscle for life. And that’s just spelled out muscle, F O R life.

com and share your thoughts on how I can make this better. I read everything myself and I’m always looking for constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode. And I hope to hear from you soon. Oh, and before you leave, let me quickly tell you about one other product of mine that I think you might like.

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