Ep. #201: What Are the 3 Best & Worst Nootropic Supplements?

Kurtis Frank: [00:00:00] Forgetting something in working memory before you put it into short term, that’s where Backopo helps. And ideally, if the mechanisms that Bacopa works on are maxed out, you will have what is known as steel trap memory, the ability to look at something and be able to remember it without any effort.

Mike Matthews: Hey, it’s Mike with Muscleful Life and Legion Athletics back with another interview. Episode of the podcast. And this time I interview Curtis Frank about one of his favorite topics, which is nootropics or brain boosting supplements. Now, chances are you don’t know of Curtis. You don’t know him by name, but you probably do know of his work.

And especially if you care about supplementation, because Curtis is the co founder of examine. com, which is a website. Again, if you’re into supplementation and the. Science of [00:01:00] supplementation in particular, all about examined, but in case you haven’t heard of it, it is simply the premier resource on the internet for learning about the science of supplementation.

And it goes into the deep science of supplementation. And it’s also an unbiased science. Resource because it doesn’t have any affiliation with any supplement company. It doesn’t receive any money from supplement companies. It funds itself through the sale of supplement guides. And just to give you an idea of the scope of Curtis’s work today, examine has long form in some cases, very long form.

In depth guides to over 500 different supplements. And those guides contain over 41, 000 scientific citations. And yes, Curtis was personally responsible for researching, compiling, and writing the vast majority of that body of work. And I’m also excited to have Curtis on the show and to introduce him to all of you, because he recently became the director of [00:02:00] research for my supplement company, Legion Athletics.

Which has been hugely beneficial to us because he is simply one of the most knowledgeable people I’ve ever met and probably will ever meet on the subject of supplementation. And in this interview, you’re going to get an idea as to why I say that, because Curtis is going to share with us some of his many insights on nootropics generally, as well as his favorite and least favorite options and why.

Whether you are a diehard newt fan, or on the fence about them, or just completely ignorant and don’t even know what I’m talking about, I think you’re going to find this discussion interesting and helpful. This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills, 

Kurtis Frank: but I’m not 

Mike Matthews: big on promoting stuff that I don’t personally use and believe in, so instead I’m just going to quickly tell you about something of mine.

Specifically, by flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, this book has sold over 200, [00:03:00] 000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands of men and women get the bodies they really want, eating the types of food they really love, which is why it has over 700 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average.

So if you want to know how to build your best body ever without having to follow a boring, bland, lazy, boring book, overly restrictive bodybuilding diet. And if you want 125 of my personal favorite recipes for building muscle, losing fat, and getting healthy, then you want to pick up the Shredded Chef today, which you can find on all major online retailers like Amazon, Audible, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play.

Now, speaking of Audible, I should also mention that you can actually get the audiobook 100 percent free. When you sign up for an audible account, which I highly recommend that you do. If you are not currently listening to audio books, I love them myself because they let me make the time that I spend doing stuff like commuting, prepping [00:04:00] food, walking my dog and so forth into more valuable and productive activities.

So if you want to take Audible up on this offer and get my book for free, then simply go to www.bitlybitly.com/free tsc, and that will take you to Audible and then you just click the sign up today and save button, create your account. And voila, you get to listen to the Shredded Chef for free. Alrighty.

That is enough. Shameless plugging for now, at least let’s get to the show. Curtis. I finally got you on the podcast. Thanks for coming, man. No problem. I had to work. You had, you made me work for it. Not totally. I’m a tease like that. That’s why I like you. So we’re here to talk nootropics, nootropics, however you pronounce them, and I actually didn’t realize how freaking popular these things are.

We recently [00:05:00] released ours and that went it sold out in 2 or 3 weeks. And, I’ve been looking into there’s a website, it’s like statista. com and just doing some market research for some new products and stuff. And I came across how big this space is. And I was like, Oh I guess that makes sense.

And then look at Google trends like, Oh I guess that makes sense. And so I thought it’d be great to get you on to break down. What these compounds are and what they aren’t and what are the ones that are fairly well established in terms of safety and efficacy and what are the ones that are in the gray and what are the ones that are in the red because I get asked about it fairly frequently.

So I figured, why not bring the mega expert on the mega expert of everything? Supplementation. 

Kurtis Frank: Oh, that’s a compliment. First I just want to elaborate that a lot of people look at neurotropics, I’m just going to say noops from now on, because it’s cute to say noops, but the entire genre of noops was based upon the fact that it’s stuff that affects the brain, it is [00:06:00] somewhat growth promoting and protecting, and it is safe.

Now I want to mention those three things, that’s what a neurotropic is. Growth promoting safe and just it makes you a little bit better each day. Amphetamines are not neurotropics and I just use amphetamines because it’s a blatant example because there are some brain boosters out there that do beneficial effects, but they do beneficial effects for the first one or two hours after taking it.

And they don’t actually improve the health of the brain over long term, and you can use them every now and then, and they do have benefits technically speaking, I wouldn’t call it caffeine, a neurotropic, but people use caffeine before studying and it works out well. So in a way, neurotropics are like the multivitamins.

Of the brain and other stuff for more like the pre workouts of the brain to take them on an as needed basis. That makes sense. And when you say 

Mike Matthews: promoting growth, what does that mean? Exactly. Just in case people are wondering. 

Kurtis Frank: [00:07:00] Generally speaking, all cells in the body will have a certain rate of decay and a rate of regrowth.

And if you’re in a healthy state, these rates match each other. So they just, balance each other out. But if you supply. enough nutrients and compounds to the brain so that it encourages growth, but not in an excessive manner, then whatever you study, you’ll signal to the brain is we’re doing this thing now, we need more of these neurons and more of the signaling pathway, and then your body will be in a state of which you can readily adapt.

If it’s not in that state, then you get to the point where you try to do something over and over again, and it’s just not clicking. For an entire year. It just never clicks. But if we think back to our times as teenagers, we could very much look at something, research it, and it clicks within a day or a week.

And that’s because the brain is in a state where it’s able to just create new neural pathways to facilitate what the body is trying to do. Ignore tropics. [00:08:00] In theory should provide the basis. So when you go and venture to something new, you have the stuff in your body ready to 

Mike Matthews: support that. And is it just that naturally declines with age or is it more of a lifestyle thing?

Is it a bit of both? Definitely a bit of both. 

Kurtis Frank: I’m one of the few people who says Literally, the entire topic of age is probably just a side effect of lifestyle, but you can literally never hit 100 percent on lifestyle. You can only hit 90 percent at best. So obviously it’s going to be 10 percent decay over time.

So technically speaking, it’s all lifestyle, but you just can’t 100 percent prevent it as you grow older. And what, in terms of lifestyle, what are the big factors? Generally speaking, not having any nutrients of which benefit affect the brain or at least having subpar amounts like fish oil beneficially affects the brain.

But some people just don’t have fish in their diet, never supplement fish oil. And while the body does have mechanisms in place to counteract this, to [00:09:00] make their own EPA and DHA just in case. The body doesn’t necessarily want to do that to perform at optimal levels. Furthermore, there are many things we do in our lives.

Stress, alcohol cigarette usage, just any sort of recreational drug. Aside from maybe LSD, but that’s a topic for another day. A lot of these stuff. It gives you a short term benefits at the cost of long term neurological health. And while if you just have like alcohol for a week or whatever, you won’t feel it after about 10 or 20 years, it definitely starts hitting.

Mike Matthews: And how does activity level does exercise plays a role in this too, or just physical activity? 

Kurtis Frank: Generally speaking like in Ascend, we use Baklava because Baklava, stimulates neurons to produce growth factors, BDNF and NGF in particular. And these factors like this is not 100 percent correct.

So don’t quote me on this, but the general idea is that BDNF and NGF to neurons is similar to testosterone, to muscle tissue, as [00:10:00] long as it’s floating around, it’s going to encourage things to grow. So wait, there are steroids in ascend. No, I’m kidding. Oh yeah. Totally not. Weak steroids, also legal.

And all that, but yeah, like the entire thing is exercise itself releases BDNF and NGF a bit, and it just like pumps the blood around just because generally speaking, if you stress a neuron, it’s going to try to destroy itself. It’s going to fail, and then it’s going to repair itself stronger than before.

It’s like muscle tissue, except neurons don’t grow like in mass size, so you can’t see the changes. But ultimately speaking, it’s the same sort of idea and by exercising, you can get more of those growth factors and when the neurons get destroyed, by whatever means, you just have more things there to help the neurons grow back once again.

Mike Matthews: And I think that your take on and maybe I’m wrong is a little bit different. At least it’s a little bit different than what I see out there with quite a few different nudes that are on the market where. Use the analogy of a multivitamin for the brain, and [00:11:00] I really liked that. And that’s why obviously we, we have it in the copy.

And I think that’s like a core selling point. And we actually crafted the whole pitch around that concept, which I really liked. I actually prefer that more to what I’ve seen more of. And again, this is something you’ve seen a lot more. So maybe I just. Got a, a biased sample size, but from what I’ve seen in the new space, it’s a lot of stuff that is more trying to sell sell more people trying to sell their newts as pre workouts than multivitamins as acute stimulants.

That are going to be like something like limitless or then something that is going to slowly, but steadily increase your brain health and your brain development over time and deliver a cumulative benefits as opposed to, take this and your brain’s going to get jacked. And is that I’m just curious on your take on, cause that also comes, I guess it segues into some of the things that are out there that meet that criterion for you which would be, I’m assuming if you want to start with, what are the few of your favorite nudes that [00:12:00] fit that context and that provide efficacy as well as safety.

And then we can probably get into some grays and then some ones that you don’t like and why. 

Kurtis Frank: Okay for this topic, I’m just going to preface before everything I’ve mentioned, whether it’s an acute benefit or a long term one. The nootropics I like the most first and foremost Baclopomineri, which is included in the SEND.

And it’s just because it’s a herb it’s literally a swamp herb from India. Doesn’t sound like something that’d be, like, all scientific or held up to pharmaceutical standards. But it is and you just put it in people’s mouths. You wait a month because it literally takes a month to work and after a month, the whole how do you say short term forgetting is reduced.

So if you’re just sitting at a desk or whatever, you’re looking at a bunch of stuff, 5 data points and you think, I understand these 5 data points. And then you look away and all of a sudden. I don’t know anything. That’s short term forgetting, like forgetting something in working memory before you put into short term, [00:13:00] that’s what backup helps.

And ideally, if the mechanisms that BackupA works on are maxed out, you will have what is known as steel trap memory. The ability to look at something and be able to remember it without any effort. BackupA is not that strong, but it helps towards that same effect. It works in youth. It works in both men and women.

It works in those who have some instances of cognitive decline. You just put it in your mouth and it works. And for neurotropics, reliability is the one thing that we need the most. The only real issue with baklava is that for some people, they say it’s sedentary. Some people, they say it’s stimulating.

There’s a little bit of variability when it comes to just how you feel after putting it in your face for the first time. But at the end of the day, it helps with working memory and preventing you from forgetting things and anything in the way of side effects that are common intestinal side effects, because it’s related to being swamp, really, there [00:14:00] are, I’d say, about.

10 percent of users, if they take it on an empty stomach, they’re going to have cramps and maybe diarrhea from it. It is best it’s absorbed better with food, but just for side effects as well, definitely take it with a meal to prevent that. That’s easy 

Mike Matthews: enough. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, but that’s pretty much the only side effect that we know of right now.

It is also under researched when it comes to drug interactions. So if you want to North Tropic to benefit your grandmother, who’s already taken 5 pharmaceuticals, we cannot confirm at this moment in time that backup is safe. It probably best stick to blueberry for that. Interesting. And why blue? Why blueberry blueberries confirm safe?

If you put blueberry in the diet of somebody on a bunch of pharmaceuticals, It just doesn’t seem to interact with any drug. 

Mike Matthews: Sure. 

Kurtis Frank: But what’s the similarity in terms of the effects in them? Oh it also increases a BDNF. So it’s one of those passive growth promoting compounds.

And the only reason we don’t have it in a sentence because it’s expensive as a [00:15:00] supplement. So it’s not 

Mike Matthews: the blueberry for anybody listening. Blueberry itself is not expensive to get it standardized to get what you really want, which is anthocyanins. Oh, yeah. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, and like you could also get the benefits of blueberry for cognitive health if you had 250 grams fresh blueberry a day, but that’s going to run you about six to 7 a day at the very least three bucks a day.

That’s pretty high. Yeah. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Okay. Good. So that’s the Copa. What’s number two for you? 

Kurtis Frank: Agmatine is it’s hard to like really get all my thoughts on Agmatine across, but it may be the most important supplement in the next decade. Wow, that’s a strong statement, why, how come? Because the opioid epidemic, just the heroin epidemic.

So at this moment in time, what we know about Agmatine is that it is its own neurotransmitter. The pre workout supplement L Arginine actually turns into Agmatine in the body, but at a controlled rate. If you were to supplement Agmatine, then what we find when it [00:16:00] comes to opioid signaling is that first of all, Opioids become more effective, which means that for any sort of pharmaceutical intervention, you can use less of the opioids to get the same effect.

Beyond that, opioids have less side effects while you’re using them. And if you’re going through opioid withdrawal, it doesn’t hurt you as much if you have agmatine in your body. Furthermore, agmatine by itself reduces pain perception significantly. And just in general, if you were to give a bunch of agmatine to any medical doctor who prescribes opioids, they could then use agmatine to reduce the hazards of opioids.

In society and their patients overall and to help with opioid withdrawal, the only problem is that there’s not enough human evidence to prove all these statements, but it is more than enough convincing to at least give it a try. Given how equity does not have any proven side effects right now. And do you think that research will get [00:17:00] done?

It really just needs to become more popular as soon as more people start talking about equity and as soon as more people start. Thank you very much. Bringing out the idea that egg protein could help with the opioid epidemic. The research will follow like I’ve already mentioned equity to a lot of people just who I’ve counseled online, which honestly, in retrospect, probably isn’t the most valid thing to say, but there is at least a dozen people who I’ve talked to directly who said that they stopped using opioids and while it was still.

Hell to stop using opioids like he doesn’t make it amazing or whatever it’s a bit easier with a team and at this point in time anything that makes just a wee bit easier is going to be acceptable absolutely and what about 

Mike Matthews: in terms of its new tropic effects. 

Kurtis Frank: Oh, it just protects cells. That’s pretty much it it goes into every cell, it just rests there, and when the cells go and undergo stress, Angiotensin not as much stress.

It reduces it a little bit. Furthermore, [00:18:00] it has some signaling properties of which would reduce aggression and increase judgment. If anyone listened to this, it has taken Yohimbe. And experience side effects, him being of which include a reduced judgment, increased aggression, increased irritation, equity is basically the opposite.

When it comes to just like beneficial side effects, it’s more of a calmness and increase in judgment. But for the most part, it’s just a standard protective molecule that we could just have floating in our brains. And if something happens, it’s there to prevent from happening. If something bad happens, I should say.

Mike Matthews: Interesting. And so if somebody’s looking to, because again, so if they’re looking to either acutely enhance cognition to at least one degree or another, or to improve long term brain health and brain development, how does aguentine fit into that exactly? Obviously, there’s not the acute. It’s more the latter.

Yeah. Can you just quickly break that down? 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, I would say that don’t put too much faith into agmatine for short term effects, but [00:19:00] be just aware that it could induce a state of calmness, reduced irritation, increased judgment. Again, the studies are not there to prove this. It’s just plausible.

It could happen. It will increase like just general health over the long term, but for the most part, agmatine is not a neurotropic that. Unless you have an opioid dependency habit, it’s not something you should intentionally seek out. It’s the type of thing that if it happens to get into your supplement that you’re using, all the better.

And that’s why you included it in Ascend, right? Pretty much. In Ascend, we needed at least one compound that had protective effects. And Egmatine just, if There’s an opioid user out there who wanted Norotropic and they also wanted to stop using opioids, then slipping them in the Agmatine is both safe and could potentially just change their lives.

And there’s no other nor protective agent that really spoke out to me as much as Agmatine. Interesting. 

Mike Matthews: Hey, [00:20:00] quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth.

If you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as well, please do tell them about it. It really helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say, Thank you. You can find me on Instagram at Muscle for Life Fitness, Twitter at Muscle for Life and Facebook at Muscle for Life Fitness.

So now what’s number three? What’s the next one on the list of a green light? 

Kurtis Frank: Are we talking about things that have human evidence behind them or can I just get crazy with the recommendations here? Up to you. I’m 

Mike Matthews: just, this is what are the three nudes that you like the most and why? Spirulina.

Your favorite. Is this your favorite? Is this your favorite supplement period? 

Kurtis Frank: Spirulina, [00:21:00] garlic, berberine, egmatine, and fucoxanthin are my top five. And all for stupid 

Mike Matthews: reasons. We’ll 

Kurtis Frank: just call it the curtis. No, not even that. Because have you noticed, I just mentioned my top five supplements and creatine wasn’t even in there.

These aren’t supplements that work. They’re ones that are just super interesting to me. I’m just going to take them one minute to ramble on Fucosanthin, which is included in a triumph on the sole basis of I love Foucault. It’s just great. It’s basically a fat burner. It’s it’s carotenoid like vitamin A or beta carotene.

And it literally just, it goes to do a fat cell. It stays there for 10 to 12 days, and it just increases the amount of fat that is lost inside that cell to have a fat burner that is non stimulatory and stay in a fat cell for so long. It’s just incredible. The only problem is that it’s really weak.

And even though if it sounds like it stays in a fat cell for 12 days, causing fat loss, it’s Probably not that strong and it’s [00:22:00] really interesting to me because we technically have studies saying that it caused over like 20 pounds of fat loss in a month. There are heavily biased studies that I wouldn’t put much faith into them, but technically they’re there.

And also fucosanthin is a brown pigment. It’s literally the color brown. And there’s a study that they thought that Fucoxanthin turned white adipose tissue into brown adipose tissue. But quite literally, they were looking at the adipose tissue and went, Yup, this is brown. And then two years later, it was like, wait, Fucoxanthin is brown.

Oh, damn it. Oops. Like that actually happened. Like it was just hilarious. That must have been a big comedown. Yeah, like it happens every now and then, but it’s memorable. But anyways, like going back to spirulina, the main thing that I have with spirulina is that literally everybody I’ve recommended spirulina to it’s cheap, it’s safe.

It tastes like shit. And 

Mike Matthews: yes, it does taste like shit for anybody that hasn’t tasted it. Just pick up pick up a bottle of Genesis [00:23:00] and I think we’ve done a good job making it taste decent. And then though, so taste that and then just get some pure spirulina powder and compare. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah. It’s like pure spirulina is basically wet grass that has some glue in it because you just like.

You eat it, it’s oh, what grass, and you spit it out, and the spirulina’s no, I’m sticking to your taste buds for the next 10 minutes, deal with it. It’s a supplement you need chase for, but yeah anyways, just everyone I’ve recommended to take at least five grams of spirulina a day, they’re just happier.

Just a general increase in contentment, subtle increases in cognition, nothing to write home about, but overall, if I recommend 5 grams to 10 grams spirulina a day, people report that they just feel and are better than before. And they can’t really pinpoint why they feel or are better, but almost all of them say that they are.

Why is that? Like, how does it work? The thing is with spirulina supplementation we have [00:24:00] quite a few studies on it. Most of the studies are. Somewhat lackluster, poor quality, but it shows that spirulina is potent on various things like reducing liver fat, spirulina is great at that reducing inflammation, spirulina is great at that, increasing immunity, which should not happen with an anti inflammatory, spirulina is also great at that, and it’s also theorized that it could promote longevity.

Have you heard of Gilbert’s syndrome at all? Okay. So Gilbert’s syndrome is the best disease to have. Gilbert’s syndrome is a syndrome that not many, not too many people have, and it’s due to having increased bile acids floating around in the blood. But when you look at people with Gilbert’s syndrome and compare them to people without any disease states.

People with Gilbert syndrome has lower rates of obesity, lower risk of cardiovascular mortality, lower rates of diabetes, increased mobility in older age, and five years at minimum increased [00:25:00] lifespan. So it’s more like a it’s not a disease. It’s 

Mike Matthews: like a, it’s like an enhancement. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, it was thought to be a disease until they realized, wow, it, everything is better under the situation and spirulina’s main component, C phycocyanin, is a bile acid mimetic.

It works as bile acids should and is thought to replicate the state of Gilbert’s syndrome. So it just does everything to a moderate or minor degree and it does it well. And yeah, like everyone, I’ve recommended it to just felt a lot better. They did more things. They were happier doing those things. And that’s the entire point of a neurotropic.

You don’t want to take something, put it in your mouth, say, I feel better, and then do the same stuff each and every day. You want something that encourages you to go out and do new things, learn more things, and just affect the world more. And spirulina has done that for a lot of people I’ve advised. Yeah.

Mike Matthews: I can attest to that. I actually feel, to be [00:26:00] fair, it’s, I’m actually thinking more with Genesis. I would say, I know I noticed more of an acute benefits with Genesis, but before Genesis, I used to take five to 10 grams of spirulina every day, just as a standard thing. And honestly, I had taken it for so long.

It’s hard for me to just. Right off the bat, compare before and after, but I definitely notice a difference with Genesis. 

Kurtis Frank: And if you ever stop taking spirally, like your nasal spidey senses go away. I should also mention that it is amazing at clearing out mucus from the nose.

Oh, wow. Like I used to complain a lot that I was genetically inferior because I always had mucus on my nose and now I can smell eternity. What does it smell like? It’s just. It smells like everything, forever. Wow. But yeah just, for anyone who has allergic rhinitis, if they like, get a bit inflamed or have alcohol and there’s a bunch of mucus in their nose, Spirulina will be a godsend for you.

And forget the Norotropic and all that stuff just to wake up and not have a stuffed nose, that alone is worth [00:27:00] it. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, absolutely. Cause I, half the time you’re like, am I getting sick? What’s going on? Yeah. And should we talk alpha GPC or is that on your middle list?

Kurtis Frank: Alpha GPC is a weird one because generally speaking, you want a source of choline and it doesn’t really matter too much what the source of choline is as long as it’s in your body. Do you want to quickly just let everybody know what choline is? Choline is a dietary component. It’s You could say it’s like a vitamin, but the thing is, if you don’t eat any choline, your body will function normally.

The definition of a vitamin is when you don’t have any in your diet, you get a disease state from it and the body can manage fine without dietary choline. It likes having some extra in the body. So you have the new body and it’s just floating around and if your body ever needs to make acetylcholine neurotransmitter that mediates both muscle contraction and memory formation, then it’s good to have a nice amount of choline around so you can make the acetylcholine.[00:28:00] 

And 

Mike Matthews: Practically speaking, how does that play out if you have a very, let’s say, choline deficient body? Diet. 

Kurtis Frank: Oh yeah. The choline deficient diet. Then would you, 

Mike Matthews: What you probably notice, like what would you notice? Would you notice muscular related things? Maybe in terms 

Kurtis Frank: of neuromuscular function or, I’ve ne I’ve never actually advised anybody who was in a choline deficient diet and had improved neuromuscular function.

But there are studies shown that you just take some alpha GPC before workout and all of a sudden your muscles contract better. 

Mike Matthews: We’ve actually seen that in some reviews already for you’ve probably seen yourself on Ascend, which has AlphaGPC where people are saying they’ve noticed that they’ve noticed what seems to be a better mind muscle connection is the best way they can put it.

Kurtis Frank: Yeah. And honestly as far as like pro science goes, it’s a good way to put it. I was actually really quite pleased with that because as soon as I saw the fact that we’re selling a supplement for brain health and people were reporting a better mind muscle connection that should occur with alpha GPC, I was confident the [00:29:00] fact that the people who are making our supplement, like putting it in pills and saying it’s alpha GPC, they’re honest.

Because that’s not a common side effect. No one should report that as a placebo effect. So when people on mass report better mind muscle connections, it pretty much shows that it is alpha GPC in there. So that was like history assuring. 

Mike Matthews: Absolutely. And just for anybody listening, wondering about that, one of the.

Major problems in this space is even if you want to be honest, and if you want to make and sell good products, you can get screwed by manufacturers. So you can go to a manufacturer and say, please make this product for me. Here are all the ingredients. I want them in this, in these doses. In some cases, I want these very specific Standardized more expensive, maybe even patented ingredients.

And they go, Oh yeah sure. No problem. And then they just make you a pile of shit, which of course allows them to pad their margins or in some cases extravagantly increase their margins and you won’t necessarily. No, because unless you get it tested, [00:30:00] you think you’re getting what you paid for.

Actually, we ran into that with one company. We were looking for a backup manufacturer just because it always, regardless of how good a relationship you have with your existing manufacturer, it’s smart to have a backup. So there was one company, I had every certification, it all looked legitimate and we decided to do a run of triumph with them.

That’d be the first product that we’d try because I think we. We needed some or, whatever. That was what we chose. And, oh, I think we also chose it because it’s one of the more difficult products to make because it contains so many ingredients. So we told them that we’re going to send their product off to Eurofins to get tested in triplicate before paying, before selling.

And so just, I just told them that just to let them know, even though I didn’t really have a reason to think they’re going to try to scam me, but I just know this industry. And they’re like yeah, no problem. No problem. They do a small run as their little trial run. I send a few bottles off. It comes back basically just vitamin C.

And the CEO was like, oh, that’s not possible. It’s really not possible. I’m like, nah, fuck you. I don’t care. I’m taking your fin’s word [00:31:00] over yours. Sorry. Bye. So that’s just, that’s a reality of the industry. Choosing your manufacturer is a huge part. And, we’re with a company called Capstone, which is one of the biggest nutraceutical producers in the country and good guys.

And we pay a premium to be with them. We could actually spend a lot less on our products by going elsewhere. China? I wouldn’t. Yeah. There’s that there’s, yeah there’s raws. There’s so you get out or it’s outsourced all to China or what you can do it. A lot of people do is get your raws.

Not that all raws that come from China are bad. Of course not, but you can get some really bad raws from China and, really bad. In some cases do tend to with certain ingredients, as do tend to come from China more than anywhere else. Like protein powder, for example if we just wanted to immediately decrease our cost of goods by 2030%.

I could just go elsewhere and just turn a blind eye. And look the other way and not even get myself tested. But anyways, long story short is that’s a very valid point that it is nice to see. We still get [00:32:00] stuff tested. And at this point, I know that capstone won’t screw us. Capstone does what whatever we tell them to do, they do, and they do a good job sourcing everything.

But it is always reassuring to see it in good evidence with actual end users. 

Kurtis Frank: I like Capstone. I did not think I ever would like a manufacturer, but they’re cool. They haven’t screwed us over much. Yeah, And even when they do screw us over, they apologize and correct it. So that’s nice. And 

Mike Matthews: it’s, that’s mostly been actually supplying supply chain stuff when they went through a whole merger.

That was the big screw over. Other than that, they’ve made I think one or two mistakes on an ingredient where they didn’t source the exact ingredient, but then they found out and fixed it. So yeah, on the whole though, it’s been a very smooth yeah I agree. Anyway, so with alpha GPC, cool.

That’s alpha GPC. Anything else that is worth sharing an alpha GPC? 

Kurtis Frank: All the other things that I just want to elaborate that alpha GPC stands for alpha glycerol phosphocholine. That just refers to the position that the glycerol is on the phosphocholine or whatever I completely forget at this [00:33:00] moment in time, and then there’s the choline, which is what we actually wanted that glycerol.

Phospho, however, has, how do I say it’s convincing on an in vitro level, but not enough rat or human evidence to prove, but it could potentially also support brain membranes. So it could very well be that compared to other choline sources, alpha GPC is a one two punch. We have reliable evidence to say that it has the one punch.

We’re just hoping that it has the two punch as well. So it could potentially be the best source of choline. We don’t have the evidence to prove that. But as long as we know that it’s safe, we’re going to use it. And maybe five years down the road, people say, Oh, wow, the GP part actually does benefits and we’re just going to sit there all smoke is we knew that five years ago.

Yeah, 

Mike Matthews: maybe you’ll end up running 

Kurtis Frank: studies, if spirulina and PQQ become the best supplements and like the market, I’ll just be sitting there like on my golden throne, laughing at [00:34:00] everyone. Yeah, pretty much. Bitches. You said spirulina wasn’t, didn’t have evidence. Now it does. What do you say now? And the best thing is like spirulina is so well researched and so safe too, as long as it’s made by a good manufacturer.

If you just like literally go to the sea, find some algae, which spirulina is, scrape it off. Yeah, you might die there is that potential you wouldn’t 

Mike Matthews: you wouldn’t 

Kurtis Frank: I would not advise eating algae off the top of the sea 

Mike Matthews: Or eating random mushrooms in a forest. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, exactly, but beyond that it has been investigated as a alternative protein source for Africa literally think about from a Western perspective, how much money.

Western countries want to use to help Africa. The answer is not much because they have better reasons to use their money. And, honestly, like 

Mike Matthews: Lamborghinis and like Rolexes and 

Kurtis Frank: stuff. International aid is not high up. So a spirulina was tested because it’s like, it’s healthy. It’s super cheap because it’s literally [00:35:00] algae.

You can just leave it on water and just like scoop of the pond scum and people don’t die. And people with Kwashiorkor and Merizma and like protein deficiencies and all manner of health deficiencies. Spirulina still helps them. It doesn’t kill them. The history of it is just so safe. So as long as you like get a company that doesn’t give you microcystins, like microcystins are the thing where if you make it wrong, they’re produced in the spirulina and they can pretty much destroy your liver.

So every single company in the West who makes spirulina has like a mandatory clause that was like, we need to make sure there’s 0 percent microcystins in this and on the condition that they do that safe as hell. It’s just. Incredibly safe, incredibly beneficial, super cheap, everyone needs to take at least five grams a day.

There it is. Like you’ve heard of Dr. Rhonda Patrick, right? Sure. She’s pretty much known not only for being smart, obviously she [00:36:00] is, but she’s connected her name just, sulforaphane supplements. Broccoli extract, all sorts of cruciferous vegetables and those benefits. Sulforaphane to her is like spirulina to me.

It’s not something we want our names to be connected to, but by God, we just believe that it would be awesome. So yeah, just everyone put them in your mouth now. Together, every day. I’m not so sure about self forfeiting, it’s nice, but I don’t think it’s on the whole shoving your mouth every day thing.

It’s definitely not harmful, and definitely not bad, and some people may like it, but spiralling is the only thing where I just command random people to shove their mouths. It’s just so good. 

Mike Matthews: Do you have a bumper sticker on your car that mentioned spirulina? 

Kurtis Frank: Man, I would color my car.

The color is spirulina, like dark green. Oh, you 

Mike Matthews: said it. I’m going to hold you to that. Oh, damn it. And then you can just have a tub of spirulina or everywhere you go and just give it to random people and just pitch them on it. Here, take this. 

Kurtis Frank: And the worst part is I have just enough pride to [00:37:00] actually hold you up to that.

But I was like, what color do you want your car? It’s do you have spirulina green? You can just use spirulina to color your car. Because for those of you who’ve never bought the supplement, it is a die. If spirulina gets on your counter and you don’t remove it immediately, your counter is green now.

Good luck at staying that color. That’s a very good point. 

Mike Matthews: Yet another use. Yeah, as a dye. Okay, good. Let’s now talk. What’s something that is popular that you’re not so hot on and why in the newt space? The formulation that you came up with for Ascend is rather unique. There are, it has alpha GPC.

That in quite a few nudes. But surprisingly, it’s not unique. 

Kurtis Frank: This is a good little thing I have to mention because I know that at some point, Dr. Happy is going to listen into this show. And I want to give him a nod. I have to give him a nod. Dr. Happy was a prominent poster on the website [00:38:00] Longevity.

Apparently, he made what he called the Dr. Happy stack. Or Mr. No sorry, Mr. Happy Stack. Oh, wow. He’s going to have my head for that. But basically his stack was uridine, a cholinergic, and fish oil. It’s a good stack. Like uridine is a rate limiting thing to help membrane growth. Fish oil is incorporated into membranes to help membrane growth.

Choline is a like membrane enhancing neurotransmitter, but it also stimulates membrane growth. It was very much a core component. But when I was doing my own research on uridine back when I worked at examine, I said, like to myself, wow, uridine and fish oil and some form of acetylcholine would be great.

And I thought I was being unique at this point. So when I started bragging about it, people were mocking me like how that’s the Mr. Happy stack sort of thing. But Mr. Happy is a smart bloke. And I think of myself as a smart bloke as well, and it turns out that stack, the [00:39:00] whole uridine fish oil, which isn’t in a stand because of practical reasons.

You can’t have back up on oil and the same pill without, hating your life. Yeah, like it doesn’t work out there, but you’re a dean. Fish oil and choline is a really good base. And then from that base, you add something like back up which stimulates production. Cause you have all the like components in place, then you add in something that protects it like egg matine and it’s just a really good, Base position of which you could then get a healthy brain from and then if you want to take something that is more forceful or stimulatory, then you can do that.

So that was pretty much the basis of how ascend came to be made the more multivitamin approach rather than potent agonist. But I will have to answer your question of what is recommended and just seems 

Mike Matthews: bad. Yeah, what’s popular and that you see a lot of people are seeing a lot of products because you passed over quite a few [00:40:00] that are very common in other new tropics.

Kurtis Frank: The thing I want to mention 1st is that the entire North Tropic industry is fragmented right now. It’s so weird because. The US, out of all countries in the world, has the most permissive rules for making dietary supplements. As long as it exists in nature, you can use it. And if you can’t, you are legally allowed to use it until the FDA says no.

If you were to take royal jelly, it literally has testosterone in it, too small to have an anabolic effect, but it literally has testosterone. Velveteer antler also literally has growth hormone, again, too small to have an effect. And the FDA basically looks at these products and says, okay, you’re allowed to sell them as long as it gets to a certain level, because as soon as the testosterone actually starts working, then you’re screwed, you’re taking that off the market.

But again, like. Any molecule that exists in nature, we can use in supplements [00:41:00] and yet 60 percent of neurotropics are synthetics. People are just like, oh, wow. Puracetam does not exist in nature. Good. Let’s just use it in a supplement. Like why? 

Mike Matthews: And why? Because some of these people, we’ve been asked why we didn’t include that or other similar compounds.

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, because the FDA could literally swing in a second and order us it. To remove all these products from the market. And if we don’t, we get fined over a million dollars. It’s just not worth the risk. And you think if companies were taking such a risk, obviously it has to be good, right? No. P uracitam is the staple nootropic.

It is quite literally the molecule of which the term nootropic was made from. And because P uracitam exists, the entire field of nootropics exists. It was. Specifically designed to protect the brain without causing any harm whatsoever and to promote growth over the long term. And some people like using it.

But the thing is, when it comes to human [00:42:00] studies, we have one study from the 1970s where Angry boys in high school were a bit less angry, and that’s 

Mike Matthews: it. Yeah, but give that study to us to a supplement marketer and just wait. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, but like when you say, oh, this was tested in 1970 and angry boys became less angry.

It doesn’t go over well in market copy. So a lot of people just ignore it. They just so more folks on the fact that pure as damn was popular. So obviously it has to work of which, whether or not it works, we literally cannot prove at this point in time. It’s been on the market for over 40 years.

We cannot prove its effects. Yes or no. At this point. It’s weird. And that’s like what a lot of North tropics are just when the users say something’s good or something’s bad. That’s all that matters. That drive sales just because of word of mouth. Yeah. But when it comes to just ethics and morality, you don’t want to rely on word of mouth.

You want the studies. Absolutely. Like a good example. This is a, I [00:43:00] don’t know how to pronounce it. Or something like that. Yeah. And basically, it has a lot of good evidence to show benefits in some people. And I want to emphasize that, in some people. Word of mouth does not specify who these some people are, so all people take it.

And it turns out that it could act like an opioid and have opioid withdrawal effects in some people. And those people are hurt severely from it. And the neurotropics community, generally speaking, doesn’t really care about those side effects. And more than any other demographic, the Northropics community influences the Northropic producers a lot, and the Northropic community is 80 percent self reports from people who think that they are immune to the placebo effect and just say what they want, and so the Northropic community is You can literally have a 2017 study of a man who synthesized a new form of [00:44:00] uridine I don’t know, uridine quadphosphate.

It literally doesn’t exist, but maybe it could, I don’t know. And it will be on the market 15 minutes. Later, as the newest hottest thing. Yeah, it’s just your Dean works and this thing’s kind of new. So obviously it works better. Do not rely on some reports from Northropic communities.

They just, they’re not 

Mike Matthews: reliable. What’s another gray area? No tropic for you. Something that’s popular that people that are interested in these things have at least heard of, if not tried and that you passed on and why, or if you want to even just go to the whole, the other end of the spectrum and what’s something you really don’t like that you think could even be dangerous.

Kurtis Frank: The dangerous thing is how the neurotropic community is very closely related to the illicit drug community. And a lot of this was connected to the fact that microdosing LSD. Literally has a lot of benefits. Like it seems really cool, especially when it comes to PTSD. If you have somebody who has post traumatic stress disorder, [00:45:00] micro dosing LSD once a week could actually help them a lot.

But because of stuff like that, People are oh so ready to recommend illicit drugs for the purpose of enhancing the brain. And it just seems like a cocktail of everyone having illusions of grandeur. There’s a herb called polygallate tenuifolia, which I am really interested in because it just seems so cool.

And the reason it sounds so cool is because If you give it to rats, it will have antidepressant effects within about 10 minutes in an NMDA based mechanism that’s only ever been seen in history by ketamine, the drug. And this is cool because Most times when you look at anti depression, you look at serotonin and dopamine.

You never look at NMDA. And this is the first time a herbal has ever potently affected depression in a non serotonin based manner. And yet somehow that has [00:46:00] resulted in people recommending that, Oh, you feel a bit sad? Take ketamine! No! Don’t do that. Ketamine Fs you up. The only reason Polygala is at all interesting is because it doesn’t have the psychoactive effects of Ketamine.

Mike Matthews: What about Vinpocetine? Because that’s obviously one that you’ll find in a lot of nootropics. 

Kurtis Frank: Oh, Vinpocetine is harmless, to be honest. It’s a bit silly, but harmless. Because it started out as Vincomine. Alkaloid fountain plants, and then they altered it to VIN Post Me, which is synthetic. So technically speaking, you can’t self-impose as a dietary supplement.

And you could argue that, eh, it’s safe enough. We could, but rules are rules kind of thing. But ultimately it does seem to improve blood flow to the brain. It does seem to have protective effects. And if you were to randomly have a stroke, if you had been posting in your system at that time, it would do protective effects.

It does seem something [00:47:00] that seems cool, but it got grandfathered in as a potent neurotropic and brain enhancer, but it doesn’t have much evidence to suggest that it actually increases brain function. It doesn’t really make you smarter. It’s just like how we use Agmatine in Ascend just because it’s there as a protective factor.

Fimbositine is very much a protective factor. It’s just one that the FDA could technically ding you on. 

Mike Matthews: And what about Hooper’s DNA? That’s another one, obviously, that I get asked a lot about, and it’s popular. It’s in many nootropics. 

Kurtis Frank: I don’t know, I’ve a problem with Hooper’s DNA, but at the same time, respect for it because it works.

It’s an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor. And every time we’ve talked about acetylcholine so far, we’ve talked about its benefits. Acetylcholine esterase is the enzyme that degrades acetylcholine. So if you block it, like cuposine does, you get a relative increase in acetylcholine. This will lead to better muscle contractions, better learning, better memory formation, [00:48:00] and it will just be a beneficial effect to the brain.

But here’s the thing. I want to mention a balance between L tryptophan and 5 HTP right now. I want to refer to the rate limit. If you put 5 HTP in your body, it will turn into serotonin. It will always turn into serotonin. And you’ll get an abnormal amount of serotonin. Your body goes Wait, this isn’t right.

We need to have an emergency reactive approach to this and suppress serotonin signaling. L tryptophan does convert to 5 HTP, but there’s a rate limit in the middle. Much just, if there’s a person on the assembly line that determined the rate of production, that would be it. And because he doesn’t allow more 5 HTP to be produced than needed, it doesn’t get into a problematic area.

When we use something like CDP choline, alpha GPC, choline bitartrate, these are all before the rate limit. And as such, you cannot force an abnormality [00:49:00] in acetylcholine signaling. Cruprazine A is after the rate limit. If you have it in your body all the time, it could force an abnormality. And there’s a common saying, What the drug giveth, the drug taketh away.

The benefits you feel on a drug will be directly opposite the downsides of when you’re off the drug during withdrawal. And this applies to Hooper’s DNA. The issue, however, is that if Hupozine A was only in your body for one hour, then it would be fine. Have an hour of good study, have an hour after that where you feel like shit, and then just have 22 hours where you feel normal.

But Hupozine A is actually in your body for a good 12 hours or so. That’s, it’s half life is 11 hours. It is technically in your body for an entire day after you take it. So if you take it each and every day, Your body will adapt to just have expecting cupazine A in your body 24 7. So then when you [00:50:00] stop that one bottle of supplementation, for the next month, you’re in a down phase.

And if you know this is going to happen, it’s fine. You do you, you have decisions over your own body. But a lot of times you sell supplements to people who don’t know about what the drug give or the drug taketh away. They don’t know about withdrawal or They don’t expect it to apply to supplements and dietary supplements with an active dose of whoopie ZNA have the risk of harming the person for the month or so after they stop using the supplement and it’s just from an ethical standpoint, you have to give a warnings out for that.

If you want to use whoopie ZNA, go for it. Just be aware that it’s one of those supplements that you take three times a week or so, 

Mike Matthews: not every day. And that’s why you left it out of a send, right? Just because you felt that the, yeah the cons outweighed the pros. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, it’s just supposed to be the thing you pop in your mouth every day and have reliable benefit and don’t need to worry about it.

But if it was [00:51:00] in there, you need to worry about it a little bit and take some time off a sentence, which is. Not what the supplement was designed for 

Mike Matthews: perfect. Okay. I think that pretty much covers everything that we had on our outline. Is there any anything that we haven’t touched on? 

Kurtis Frank: There’s probably a lot of things we could discuss.

If you’re interested, just throw a topic across, but. Beyond that, no, can’t think of anything 

Mike Matthews: for round one. This is going to be a regular thing. I’m going to get you back on 

Kurtis Frank: and I could talk for days. The people listening, 

Mike Matthews: we’ll do the longest supplement podcast ever. We’ll do 72 hours, 

Kurtis Frank: just 12 hours.

Then we’re just both random. We’re going to fall asleep. 

Mike Matthews: No amphetamines, man. Totally. I, I, usually I always end, obviously it’s, Hey, where can people find you? Find your work. If you want to find Curtis’s work, you can find him over at our blog at legionathletics. com slash blog. He is writing all kinds of cool stuff over there.

Also Curtis, who are working on obviously, this, but so everybody else knows we’re working on an in depth supplementation. Course, which is, 

Kurtis Frank: Oh, it drains my soul. [00:52:00] It’s so drains my soul. We’re close, man. Every like the best information possible at one document and yet be held accountable, follow that.

It’s gonna, it’s going to be good. It’s. It’s definitely going to be good, but, oh man, it feels like the course shanked me in the back alley somewhere. Like it just killed me. You’re still alive though. It’s going to be good 

Mike Matthews: though. Yeah. And we’re close. I know that one is going to be over to me soon.

So we’ll be able to wrap that up and I’m excited for that. Just because it’s be a lot of good information and any, anything else, Curtis, that you want to let everybody know. 

Kurtis Frank: I have to give a nod to examine. Come on. They’re my babies. I don’t even work for them anymore, but I have to give them a nod. For those of you who don’t know why examine was where I first started working and it’s examined.

com. And it’s just a database of all supplement knowledge. And 

Mike Matthews: let’s put in perspective how out of all the technical writing that, people can find on examine. com. How much of that is attributed to you? 

Kurtis Frank: At this moment in time [00:53:00] probably around 95%. Curtis is examined. Yeah. Because I’ve trained a lot of other researchers.

Their literal job is to go over my work and say how it’s wrong and fix it. The entire idea of examine is to be an updated Wikipedia, except. Ton better on all dietary supplements. And obviously Legion wants to be accurate as possible, which is why I’m here. Obviously Mike’s here as well. So yeah, two for one kind of deal.

I, I bow to you. But yeah, like you’re just it’s literally my job to book. Yeah. Something’s my job, yo, but yeah, like exam is a good database to look into. Cause if any of you are listening and thinking, I like this podcast. I like this company, but technically it’s biased. I want to know the source.

Yeah. Go to examine. They like just all the information ever unbiased. If they ever associate with supplement company, I will charge them screaming. Like I, I know where the owner lives. I will yell at him. 

Mike Matthews: [00:54:00] Yeah. No, examine is exam is a great resource for anybody interested, especially if you really want to dive into the science of supplementation, examine is the place to go.

It gets real heavy, real fast. But if you want to get to that level of granularity and detail, there’s nothing like it. There’s no other option. Okay. Perfect. Thanks again, Curtis. I appreciate the time. And next time, what are we going to talk about next time? What should we do?

Kurtis Frank: Next time, like most of our demographic are athletes, right? 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, I would say most of the people are in, they’re going to be in their early twenties range from the early twenties to mid forties and they, fitness is not their life per se, they put in a good 3 to 5 hours a week in the gym and they focus on resistance training and they take care of themselves and, but not.

necessarily your super meat heads or necessarily your super athletes, 

Blood flow. It is 

Kurtis Frank: well, because not only is it in pre workouts like L citrulline, but there’s also an entire area like grapeseed extract, which we use in supplements and horse chestnut [00:55:00] that target office workers who have legs swelling each and every day.

Furthermore, there’s a dietary connection with nitrates and just general, Mike can yell at you for, exercise related stuff. Cause that’s the major terminus. 

Mike Matthews: Perfect. Blood flow. I’m an invite 

Kurtis Frank: him. Okay. We can just like. Ordain all of you with vitamin K. You will become the acolytes of the church of vitamin K.

Mike Matthews: Hey, we could actually start that. That’s the thing, man. 

Kurtis Frank: We better. It’s the next vitamin D. If people look at us and scoff vitamin K is not important, vitamin D. Yeah. Talk to us in five years. We’ll see who’s laughing then. 

Mike Matthews: Curtis has spoken. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah. The vitamin K is great. My name starts with K. It’s awesome.

Mike Matthews: Spiralina, PQQ. 

Kurtis Frank: Yeah, actually, that would probably increase the overall lifespan of everyone in the West by five years. Yes. And the greatest part is, if anyone tries to call me out on that, I’ll be dead by then.

Mike Matthews: Will it fall you into the afterlife, though? Probably. 

Kurtis Frank: PQQ’s got a [00:56:00] long half life.

Mike Matthews: It binds to your soul. 

Kurtis Frank: It sticks to your bones. 

Mike Matthews: Okay. Awesome. Thanks again, Curtis. This was fun and Blood Flow it is next time. We’ll line it up. 

Kurtis Frank: Talk to you later, man. 

Mike Matthews: Hey there, it is Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful, and if you did and don’t mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet, then please leave a quick review of it on iTunes or wherever you’re listening from.

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