Ep. #219: Research Review: Dr. Mike Zourdos on Training to Failure

Mike Matthews: [00:00:00] Hey, this is Mike from Muscle for Life and Legion Athletics. And as you probably know, I work pretty hard to understand and promote high quality diet, nutrition and exercise science. And that’s why I have spent and continue to spend quite a bit of my time researching and then writing. articles, writing books, recording podcasts, recording videos, and so forth.

And that’s why I reference quite a bit of scientific literature in all of my work. Now, something I don’t do, though, is produce a research review where individual studies are broken down and analyzed, because one, my plate is already overflowing with projects as it is. And two, I honestly don’t think that I could do it better than the researchers who are out there creating research reviews and whose [00:01:00] work and research reviews I myself read regularly, like James Krieger, Eric Helms, Greg Knuckles, Mike Zordos, Alan Aragon, and Brett Contreras.

And so I had an idea, why not get those guys to come on my podcast to discuss various studies that they have analyzed in their reviews and share with us what they’ve learned and how we can use these key takeaways, how we can use the information in those studies to better optimize our diets, exercise routines, supplement regimens, and our overall lifestyle.

I reached out to them and they thought it was a great idea. And so a monthly series was born. Basically, once a month, I’m going to have one of these guys on the show, and they’re going to break down a study that they have analyzed in their respective research reviews. And they’re going to explain to us why these studies were conducted, how they were conducted, what the results were, what their interpretations of the results were, [00:02:00] and how we can use the information to improve our diets.

our training, supplementation, or in some cases, just the overall quality of our lives. And in this episode, I speak with Dr. Mike Zordos, who is an assistant professor of exercise science at Florida Atlantic University, and also a published researcher, competitive powerlifter And the head powerlifting coach at Florida State University.

Mike also produces a fantastic monthly research review along with Dr. Eric Helms and Greg Knuckles, which is called Mass, M A S S. And you can learn more about that at strongerbyscience. com slash mass. Fantastic review. One of my favorites. I highly recommend it. Now, in this interview, Mike is going to break down one of the studies that they analyzed in their review.

I think actually originally Greg did the analysis, but Mike is going to go over it. And the study that we are going to discuss is on the [00:03:00] topic of training to failure. And in this discussion, Mike is going to explain exactly what training to failure is, how it relates to muscle growth, how necessary it is, how to best incorporate it into your training, And more.

This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills, but I’m not big on promoting stuff that I don’t personally use and believe in. So instead I’m just going to quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my fitness book for men. Bigger, leaner, stronger. Now this book has sold over 350, 000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of guys build their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over 3, 100 reviews on Amazon with a.

Four and a half star average. So if you want to know the biggest lies and myths that are keeping you from achieving the lean, muscular, strong, and healthy body that you truly desire. And if you want to learn the simple [00:04:00] science of building the ultimate male body. Then you want to read bigger, leaner, stronger, which you can find on all major online retailers like Amazon, Audible, iTunes, Kobo, and Google play.

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Alrighty, that is enough shameless plugging for now at least. Let’s get to the show.

Hey, Mike. Thanks for coming on the show. I’m excited to speak with you about the things we’re gonna speak about, but then also I need to get you back on to do an episode on DUP because you are the DUP man. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: That’s I don’t know if I’m the man on that, but I do appreciate it. And of course, man, I’m happy to do it and I appreciate the time today.

Mike Matthews: Absolutely. So what we’re gonna be talking about here, this is the research review series that I am doing and I’m getting smart people like yourself. And we had Eric on a few times. I’ll get probably ask if Greg wants to come on next time. Just make my rounds through all the super smart people doing research reviews and taking a single study in one of the reviews that you guys have.

Published and breaking it down. And for this discussion, I wanted to talk about a study you discussed in the second issue of your review mass, which was [00:06:00] about training to failure. And this is something that I’ve written a little bit about and I get asked about fairly frequently. And it’s a good question where people wonder, is it necessary to go to absolute muscle failure?

And just to define that for people listening, that’s the point where you have to abort the set. You can’t keep the weights moving anymore. And so is that necessary? Is it good if it is necessary and good? How often should you do it? What types of exercises and so on? I’m going to pass the ball to you.

Dr. Mike Zourdos: Sounds good, man. So I think there’s a lot of good questions and obviously training to failure as you alluded to is a really hot topic. So let me answer the question first and then we’ll describe this study and then elaborate. So the question is this training to failure necessary and what does that really mean?

As you said, it really means that you just absolutely can’t do another up. You either fail on a rep or you get to the point where. You’re so exhausted on after a repetition, the next one just isn’t going to happen. So is it necessary? I’ll say that I believe based upon the totality of evidence training to failure is not necessary.

However, that doesn’t [00:07:00] mean that it doesn’t have its place. So let’s analyze this study, see what they did, what the outcome measures are. But then I want to give you guys some practical and actionable takeaways for when you can train to failure and how you should configure a training week. So in this study that actually Mr.

Knuckles reviewed and the second issue of mass. So there were 28 men in this study. They were actually untrained, which will be a little bit more important later on, but there were four groups and these four groups trained unilaterally on the knee extension. So that just means. There might have been a person and on that person, he used one leg on the leg extension for one group and the other leg was in another group and those were two groups and then there was another person and he used one leg in one group and one leg in the other group.

The four groups were the first thing was that and everybody did resistance training for six weeks and some people trained at 30 percent of one arm and some people trained at 80 percent of one around. Two groups trained at 30%, two groups trained at 80%. The other difference on top of that was is that one of the groups that trained at 30 percent went to failure on every single set and one of the groups [00:08:00] just did what they called volitional interruption, which meant that they stopped the set close to failure.

So we’ll discuss what that means as well. Another 80 percent group with the failure on every set and then another 80 percent group went to volitional interruption. So everybody trained at either 80 or 30 percent and then those groups were split up more one group at 80 and 30 percent with the failure.

The other group stopped just short of failure. So what were the results on this? The results overall when looking at the overall analysis of this is that there was essentially no difference. So failure did not increase hypertrophy and did not increase strength more so than not training to failure.

Additionally, and this is another concept to get back to, there was no difference in the hypertrophy or strength adaptations. Between the 80 or the 30 percent group, meaning between high loads and low loads, it didn’t matter for strength and hypertrophy will address the high load and low load concept in a little bit.

Let’s focus on the failure since that’s the main question. Okay, no difference between groups. All right, but let’s [00:09:00] look at the number of reps that each group got per set. The groups that were in the 30 percent group. Got 20 reps per set and the high load group got 10 reps per set. So if we look at this, let’s say the high load group, 80%, 10 reps per set.

Between the failure and non failure group, there was only about one rep difference, meaning the individuals that didn’t train to failure got 10. The individuals that trained to failure got 11. So the group that didn’t train to failure, they actually stopped at about a nine RPE. So if you’re familiar with the RPE scale, an RP of 10 equals max effort.

Nine means you could have done one more rep or one repetition and reserve. A two more reps in reserve. So training to a nine RP only one rep short of failure. That’s pretty much almost failure. So this study didn’t really compare one group training to failure versus another group training far from failure.

It actually compared run group training to failure in the other group. Almost training to failure. So that was the same thing. Yeah. Same thing in the low load group, one group trained to failure and the other group only trained about one rep off or so [00:10:00] from failure. This study, while it is interesting, it didn’t really answer the question of training to failure versus training at about a six or a seven RP.

Is there a difference there, which that I think is a different question, and I don’t think we have quite enough information to answer that dead on, although I don’t think there’s a huge difference, but if we break down this practically, the other thing that I want to say is that training to failure acutely did cause more fatigue.

I think the most important thing here is to look at how you can configure a training week. So this is something that I explain to my students here at the university all the time, which is, let’s say you have two people that are training, and the first person goes into the gym on Monday, and on Monday, they take 70 percent on squats.

And they do four sets all to failure on 70 percent on squat. Let’s say on the first set, they get maybe 13 reps. On the second set, they get nine. On the third, they get seven. And then on the fourth, they get six reps. Now, let’s say you take somebody else, [00:11:00] and this dude goes into the gym. He did four sets of eight at 70 percent on the squat.

That means he’s gonna be about a 5, 6, 7, 8 RPE on every set. He’s gonna be short of failure. If I were to ask you, and I said, Hey, Mike. The dude that went into the gym and on those four sets, he went to failure on every single set. And I want him to come back again on Wednesday and squat. Is he going to be fatigued or is he still going to be able to do it?

Mike Matthews: I think he might just miss that workout for one reason or another. Yeah. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: I don’t think he’s coming back into the gym on Wednesday. I think maybe Friday he could train. So that’s a one and a half time a week frequency. However, the dude that did four sets of eight on 70 percent was training at a submaximal RP.

I think that in that case, He’s going to come back and train again on Wednesday and then he’s going to come back and train again on Friday. So while training to failure might have felt like you crushed in that one session, you might have actually got more volume in that one session than not training to failure.

I think the cost of failure is that you’re more fatigued after that session, you cause more muscle damage. And then recovery process is a [00:12:00] lot longer. Let’s say it takes 96 hours or so. Whereas if you’re smart and you do a little less volume in one session, you can actually train more frequently and that’s going to result in more volume throughout the course of the week.

So we talked so much about volume and skeletal muscle growth and adaptation. So I think failure is important here because I think if you’re trained to failure too much, it can actually cost you volume. And that is going to decrease your training frequency. So although there is no difference in this study in terms of failure versus non failure, the thing to remember is that they only trained twice per week here and the sessions were spread out.

And they were also untrained in that you’re going to make progress on anything. So they didn’t really have the concept here in this study of saying, Hey, just fail your impact recovery for the next session. And the other group also trained really close to failure, so they couldn’t really make that differential comparison.

So I think that’s really important to keep in mind when taking a look at that. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, that makes sense. And practically speaking then, would you say that failure should be worked into certain types of workouts, should be worked [00:13:00] into certain types of training blocks, certain types of exercises, or would you say that it’s probably best just left out?

Dr. Mike Zourdos: Yeah, so I think it’s a really good question and I wouldn’t say that it’s best left out. I don’t think it’s necessary, but I also think that people enjoy training to failure a lot. And, I certainly enjoy it. Obviously, if you train to failure doing that volume, you’re going to get a nice pump and you’re going to enjoy the session.

So I do think there’s something to be said for that. And I’m a big believer of giving people. Some of what they need as if I have a client and also giving people some of what they want, meaning if you take away from somebody who that always trains to failure and you take away that concept they’re probably not going to do your program because they’re not going to enjoy it as much or it’s going to take time for them to understand that they don’t need to always do that.

So when I would work in failure is let’s say you take that same Monday, Wednesday, Friday training set up. And you’re training a muscle group three times a week. If you take that on Monday and Wednesday, you only have 48 hours recovery before the next session. [00:14:00] But on Friday, you have 72 hours. So the time that I would incorporate to failure training would be on Friday.

Because that way I have more time to recover before the next training session. Additionally, let’s just say that’s a lower body day. And I have squats and maybe I have hack squats. Leg presses and then I have leg extension and leg curls. I would save the failure training probably for the single joint movements because it’s not going to cause quite as much fatigue or a systemic fatigue as something like squats.

Additionally, if I were to train to failure on that day on squats or a multi joint movement, I would probably only do it on my last set. Set, and as many reps as possible set or a plus set. So if you have, three sets of four at 80 percent of one RM, maybe just on that last set of four, you can take that to failure and you might get seven or eight reps, something like that.

And that way it’s only one set. It gets you the feeling of, you can see how much you’ve done. It also allows you, if you were to do that every week on that one day, You would allow you to gauge progression. So let’s say on the plus set or these many reps as possible set on the four reps at 80%. You got seven reps.

Then you added five [00:15:00] pounds for the next week and you got eight reps. Then you would know you got stronger, but it wouldn’t be enough failure training to really negatively impact the next session. And then if you have single joint exercises after that, toward the end of the week, and you want to have a little bit of fun and go to failure on those.

And I think there’s nothing wrong with that. I think that’s totally appropriate. I think the trouble is if you have, let’s say a high rep day at the beginning of the week on a Monday. 15 reps and now you’re doing every set to failure and then you want to come back again on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and train.

It’s going to be a little bit problematic. So I just think it’s about how you’re structuring it and how you’re allocating it within that week of training or that micro cycle, if you will. That’s appropriate. So I would keep that failure training toward the end of the week for the most part. Keep it on the exercises.

That are more single joint and not as stressful if you do use it on a multi joint movement, I think it’s something that you can do, but I would really only use it on that last set or so and that way you can use it as a way to gauge progress as well. Additionally, if for somebody is a beginner and their technique, let’s say, isn’t necessarily sound on a squat, bench press or deadlift, I would then definitely stay away from failure on [00:16:00] those lifts as They just don’t really need that.

And you don’t want to run the risk of injury. And for them, I would keep the failure training more targeted towards single joint movements that there’s not as much skill involved in performing them. 

Mike Matthews: Makes sense. And for people that are following, let’s say simpler type of programs, let’s say somebody is like we were talking before the interview My programs in my books for men and women are essentially push, pull legs programs with some additional accessory work and for guys, some additional upper body volume in particular and for girls, some additional lower body volume.

And so for people that are following, it doesn’t have to be my program, but a program like that where you’re not necessarily squatting three days a week or training any individual muscle group directly three days a week. You can think with. How many times you are training it though. So let’s say you’re bench pressing twice a week, Mike’s advice is equally applicable there where save it for your second bench press session or your second chest session or press session.

Would you agree there, Mike? 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: Yeah. On the money, dude. We talked about this, like you said, a little bit before we, we jumped on the air here. And I think the most important thing here is [00:17:00] to understand things from a conceptual perspective. So if you’re not. Doing a lift, like a squat three times a week or two times a week in and of itself.

It doesn’t really matter to understand the concept. If you’re training that muscle group, whether it’s directly or indirectly twice a week just take a look. Hey, I’m training that muscle group directly on Monday and then indirectly on Thursday. Okay. 

Mike Matthews: For example, let’s say a little bit. Let’s say you’re doing some heavy dead lifting first.

And then a few days later, you’re doing some heavy squatting. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: Yeah, exactly. So if you’re doing that first on deadlifts on Monday, and then Day Thursday, you’re doing squatting. If you understand the concept, you know that you’d probably put your failure training on squat on Thursday, because you have much farther time from Thursday to Monday than you do from Monday to Thursday.

So if you just understand the concept and think about it logically and say, Hey, I trained a failure on deadlift today. I’m gonna get a nice pump here, and I’m gonna feel great. I’m gonna feel really beat up tonight. I’m gonna enjoy that feeling, but Thursday I’m supposed to come back and squat.

That’s gonna compromise my squatting. However, if I trained a little smarter and I trained about a seven eight RPE, I’m gonna be good to go to squat on Thursday. And then on Thursday, I got four sets of [00:18:00] squats and I only take one of them to failure. I should still be good to go to deadlift on the following Monday.

So I would think about that logically. And I think that’s in the grand scheme of things. Thinking from a conceptual perspective, I think sometimes if somebody is training a muscle group once a week, which I don’t think is optimal, I think it would be better to train it two to three times a week.

Oftentimes people will be training a muscle group once a week and they’ll do everything to failure. And then they’ll try to add in a second day based upon somebody’s recommendations. Let’s say they train on Monday to failure. Then on Thursday or Friday, they try to add it in and that first time they do it, they feel terrible.

And they say, I can’t really add this second training day in. I don’t know why these people are making these recommendations. And then they always think that, hey, I can’t train more than once a week. When in reality, if they would just cut the volume a little bit or cut the training to failure on Monday, They then be able to add in that second session.

No problem. And they would adapt to it and be good to go. So I think failure training, while can be used as we’ve talked about, it’s really about how you allocate that failure training and how you allocate that volume within a week. And we have to look at the overarching concept of the total [00:19:00] weekly volume or training block volume or yearly volume is more important than the daily volume.

And the daily volume is important that you don’t want to overdo it. And I think failure training is an Easy way to overdo it. And the example that you gave Mike, whereas if you train a failure on that deadlift on Monday, squatting is going to be difficult on Thursday, but if you stay short of failure, seven, eight RP, it should be good to go on Thursday.

It does. You’ve increased your volume frequency throughout the week. 

Mike Matthews: Hey, quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth. If you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as well, please do tell them about it.

It really helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say, Thank you. You can find me on Instagram at Muscle for Life Fitness, Twitter at Muscle for Life, [00:20:00] and Facebook at Muscle for Life Fitness. You mentioned earlier that you want to touch on, I think this is a good point, on, on just the point of the difference between the 30 percent load and the 80 percent load and how that affected strength and muscle.

Muscle growth, because that’s obviously just an ongoing discussion. Although if you pay attention to tickly the research, just recently there was a, that great meta analysis from Schoenfeld, but where I think the discussion is at least a lot clearer now than it was a few years ago in terms of what’s the real relationship between load and in gains, but many people still.

Either think that you have to train heavy to gain muscle, you’re just going to plateau if you train lightly. On the other hand, you have a lot of people that think that there’s really no difference at all in any way between training with lighter loads versus heavier loads. And some of your discussing again for the interview.

So I thought it’d be good to just touch on that quickly before we wrap up because they’re obviously there’s a little bit more to consider than just purely the mechanisms in play. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: Yeah, Mike, I really think this is [00:21:00] an important topic to discuss, and there’s really a few things at play here. I’ll try to cover three or four things here over the next few minutes.

In this study, as you pointed out, there is two of the groups trained at 30 percent and two of the groups trained at 80%. And there was no difference, meaning that For hypertrophy and strength, it seems to say that hey, training at 30 percent of 1RM is just as good for those measures as it is as training at 80 percent of 1RM and the meta analysis that you mentioned also shows that essentially that low load and high load training produce the same hypertrophy and strength adaptation.

So what does this mean for you? Can you go out and say, hey, I’m always going to train at 30 percent of one or I’m always going to do sets of 2025 30 and achieve the same strength and hypertrophy as training at a high load and I don’t necessarily believe that. So let’s talk about two reasons. I don’t necessarily believe that.

I think that the data that’s out there is good and the meta analysis is correct. And the results of this study are correct. But remember, the training status in this study was untrained. So a lot of the [00:22:00] training statuses in the scientific literature, especially on these high versus low load studies, are in relatively untrained or moderately trained individuals.

So a meta analysis, it’s only as good as the data that it has to analyze. So one of the limitations of a meta analysis is that if there’s no studies on highly trained people or well trained people, it simply can’t analyze them. So while the results are correct, I doubt that if you were to get a really experienced individual that’s been training for 10 years or so, maybe squats, 200 kilos benches, a 145 kilos and 300 pounds and 440 pounds for those that work in pounds.

And they do that. And you’re going to say to them, and they’re used to training with high loads. You’re only going to train at 20, 30 percent or one around with 20 to 30 reps for a while. I highly doubt that their strength would improve as much as somebody that’s training at 80%. I just don’t, I think we have evidence that suggests indirectly that’s not going to be the case.

So while I do think these results exist in the literature, I think we have to consider training status. And the second reason that I don’t necessarily think it’s a good recommendation to say, Hey, all the time, you can train at 20, [00:23:00] 30%. It’s just from a feasibility and practical perspective. So what’s optimal or what shows results isn’t always what’s practical.

And when you look at this, I want you to think about training two to three times a week on a muscle group and doing three sets of a 20 RM because when low load training seems to work, it seems to actually be close to failure. So of a 20 to 30 RM. Two to three times a week on a multi joint exercise.

I think that’s pretty miserable. I also think progressive overload becomes really difficult to continually increase your 20 RM. And I just think the practicality, the feasibility, and just the general want to train would decrease after a while. If you’re on your sixth week of doing this, and you say, man, I have to go in here and do this training of three sets of 25 RM.

On squat again. I think there’s a time where you’re not going to want to do that. Also, we do know that a higher trained people lower repetitions and higher loads should be better for strength. So I do think you’re going to need to work across the repetition range. But the other thing to bring up here too is that we don’t have to take everything as an all or none principle.

Because there [00:24:00] is good evidence, I’ll now backtrack a little bit and be nice to low load training and say that because there is evidence that this is efficacious for hypertrophy and strength, it can certainly be part of your program, whether it’s within a week of altering repetitions of 20 reps on one day, 12 reps on one day and six reps on another day, a wide kind of undulation pattern or pyramid, if you will, That’s certainly fine.

That’s certainly appropriate. It could be something that you do for, a week or two at a time, and then you go down to lower reps in a periodized scheme throughout a macro cycle throughout a year. So I think we need to understand that it can play a role and you can use it at times and understand that if you’re In a volume block.

That’s probably when you’d use this. You also wouldn’t do 20 reps two days before you would do four reps because that would cause a lot of fatigue. So depends on when the year you’re training and it’s not an all or none thing. A lot of times that he’s will pitch this versus that and remember all it’s doing is looking at is this better than this.

It doesn’t mean that you do this or that all the time. It’s just a concept and you take that concept and you can [00:25:00] apply it meaning. Hey. You know what? I have an injury right now and I can’t load really heavy, but I can load light and do 20 reps. That’s a great time to use this strategy. It just doesn’t have to be an all the time thing.

Mike Matthews: Said, and there’s that point of practicality is just, it can’t be overstated enough and it applies to diet and it applies to training and that, the old saying that the best diet is the one you can stick to. In many ways, so long as you stick to certain fundamentals, of course, you can’t get around energy balance and macronutrient balance and so forth.

That also applies to training. In many ways, the best training program is the one that you’re going to enjoy and stick to for the long term. So long as you follow certain fundamentals, related to overload related to intensity, related to frequency, but you have quite a bit of wiggle room.

That, you might knowingly be doing something that maybe isn’t scientifically speaking 100 percent optimal, but you like it a lot more than what would be whatever we currently consider 100 percent optimal. That’s a reason to do it. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: There’s no question, man. And I think, if you’re training purely for hyper [00:26:00] tree purposes, and that’s your main goal.

and you say, man, I hate squatting. Okay. If you want to get jacked and you want to get your legs bigger, do you have to back squat? Absolutely not. Do I think it’s a good idea? I think it is. I think you’re going to get maybe more bang for your buck with that exercise, but I don’t think you have to.

So if you really don’t want to and you can incorporate front squats or hack squats or leg presses or do other things and those things you’re going to train more frequently and you’re going to do more volume because you enjoy them and you’d rather go to the gym and do that. Yeah. Then that’s fine, go for it.

I think you can certainly make progress that way. As long as you have the fundamentals, the tenants, like you said, progressive overload specificity, I think you’re going to be fine. Mike, can I have a minute or two? I think I can give another example in this to help explain this concept. It’s a little off topic, but if that’s okay with you.

Mike Matthews: Yeah, absolutely. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: Okay. So we talked about this before we came on too. And I think here’s a good evidence of optimal and then what’s practical. If we take the concept of Cardio for lifters. For example, I think that the interference effect is well established in that moderate intensity or long duration cardiovascular exercise.

Aerobic [00:27:00] exercise is going to attenuate or harm if you will somewhat hypertrophy strength and power adaptations. Whereas hit high intensity interval training or sprinting is not the reason being hit or sprinting mechanistically is similar. To the adaptations in terms of on a cellular level that you’re going to get to resistance training and on a neuromuscular level.

However, I don’t think doing hit all the time is practical. So to illustrate this, you have somebody that goes to work and they’re at work and you tell them as their coach. Hey, I want you to go into the gym three to four times this week for your cardio sessions and I want you to do hit while doing 30 minutes of hit and 30 minutes of sprinting is very mentally demanding and it also causes a pretty decent amount of muscle damage.

So if that person is supposed to go in and get 40 minutes of for sessions that week after work. I guarantee you, they’re going to miss a couple of them because they’ve had a long day and they just don’t feel like it. But if you consider the interference effect and you say most of the detrimental effects on hypertrophy and strength with cardio or when people in the literature are running for an hour to 2 hours at a time and you say, hey, I can do steady state cardio.

I just need to use cycling for 30 to 40 minutes or so [00:28:00] rather than running and you tell this person that gets off of work rather than doing it 4 days a week. I want you over the next month. I want you to get 12 cardio sessions in six of them should be hit because mechanistically that’s probably better, but six of them can be steady state cycling for 30 to 40 minutes.

I guarantee you they’re going to adhere to that much better and they’re going to get double the sessions in because they’re still going to at least go to the gym on those days and because you’re being smart about the way you’re programming aerobic exercise, it’s not going to have a huge detrimental impact on hypertrophy because you’re using cycling and you’re not using running and you’re keeping it shorter and they’re going to adhere to it better because they’re not going to be able to train hit at 90 percent max heart rate reserve all the time.

It’s just simply not possible. I think this is an example of, hey, we understand the mechanism that play with moderate intensity exercise, moderate intensity cardio isn’t, anabolic by any measure, but when we take a look at this, they’re going to adhere to it better. That’ll probably result in a, if they’re dieting a better negative energy balance over time because they’re at least going to go to the gym and burn more calories as opposed to if they weren’t going to the gym on those days, they had to do it or they felt [00:29:00] they were forced to do it and they weren’t enjoying it.

I hope that concept makes sense. Also, I think it. Because it causes damage two to three days after you’ve done it could still result in, let’s say, muscle damage, the negatively impact a lower body training session if you don’t place it appropriately within the week. So I hope that concept makes sense.

But I just think it’s a very good way to illustrate what’s optimal versus what’s practical. And even as a scientist, I do program those moderate intensity cardio sessions for people sometimes, because I just think from a practicality perspective, it’s going to be better. It’s going to keep them enjoying it.

It’s going to keep them training more fun for them. I think that’s something to keep in mind, almost anytime you write a training program as a practicality. 

Mike Matthews: I totally agree. And it’s a good example. Looking forward to your workouts means a lot, especially when you’re going for something that for most people is going to take anywhere from probably one to.

Three or four years. At least that’s my experience working with a lot of just everyday people that, fitness is not their life, but they want to be in really good shape and they, they want to look good. They want to feel good. And for usually for what most guys want, it takes a little bit longer, if you’re going [00:30:00] to commit something for, even if it’s only a year, ideally you’d look forward to every workout, but if you can’t look forward to everyone, you’re going to look forward to more than you’re not going to look forward to.

That’s that, that goes a long way in getting you to your ultimate goal. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: No question, man. You got to enjoy it. If you’re not enjoying it, you need to take a step back, look at what you’re doing and make some adjustments because for most of us, it’s going to be a hobby. And as long as you stick to the fundamentals, like you said, you’re going to make progress.

So keep those two or three fundamentals in place. And then even if you think something else based upon the literature is better, but you’re not enjoying it. Yeah. Switch it out and go a different direction with it. And just by the fact that you’re enjoying it and you’re doing all your sessions rather than missing sessions you’re going to make better progress that way over time.

Mike Matthews: Absolutely. So quickly, let’s just let everybody know where they can go to find out more about your research review. Anything you want to tell people about the review? I, myself I’ve promoted it. I continue to read it. I really like what you guys are doing. That’s why I wanted to, it was actually the inspiration for doing this series is just cause.

You have to, one, you have to like to read a lot, which I know there are a [00:31:00] lot of people that follow me that like to read just by the nature of, a lot of people find me via books, but there are a lot of people out there that don’t particularly like to read and would rather to listen to this kind of stuff.

But for those out there who like the science and who like to read widely in, especially in this space mass is awesome. I really like what you guys are doing with it. 

Dr. Mike Zourdos: Thanks, man. It really does mean a lot to have. Somebody like yourself enjoying that as well, but mass monthly applications and strength sport You can find that if you go to greg knuckles’s website stronger by science You’ll be able to find mass pretty easily if you’re you know, not sure if it’s something that’s for you there’s a our first issue which was from april 2017.

It’s freely available so you can go ahead and download that and try it out. See if it’s something that you like. Since that issue over this past year, we’ve also added audio round tables, meaning in each written article, myself, Eric Helms, and Greg Knuckles, we record an audio version of that article.

So you guys can go ahead and listen to that too. And that’s new since the free issue that’s available. And it’s just a great time working with those guys is phenomenal. And we provide nine [00:32:00] reviews each month, seven in a written format, two in a video format. And we cover recent research.

Specifically applicable to individuals interested in getting bigger and stronger. And then the two videos that we do each month from Eric and myself, just cover kind of fundamental concepts in terms of training program design overall nutritional periodization, things like that. So if you’re interested in math, check it out.

It’s something that I really enjoy working on. The URL is Stronger by science. com slash mass. And if you go right there you’ll see a button where you can subscribe now. And you’ll also be able to download the free issue and that’s a stronger by science. com slash mass dash issue dash one, and you’ll be able to get the free issue that way.

Through both of those URLs, you can find out everything you need to know, check out what’s in mass and get the first free issue. Find out if it’s for you. 

Mike Matthews: Stronger by science. com slash M a S S. Highly recommend anyone listening who has enjoyed this discussion. You should go check this out because you are going to like mass.

Hey there, it is Mike again. I hope [00:33:00] you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did and don’t mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet, then please leave a quick review of it on iTunes or wherever you’re listening from.

This not only convinces people that they should check the show out, it also increases its search visibility. And thus helps more people find their way to me and learn how to build their best bodies ever too. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then just subscribe to the podcast and you won’t miss out on any of the new goodies.

Lastly, If you didn’t like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at Mike at MuscleForLife. com and share your thoughts on how you think it could be better. I read everything myself and I’m always looking for constructive feedback, so please do reach out. Alright, that’s it.

Thanks again for listening to this episode and I hope to hear from you soon. And lastly, this episode is brought to you [00:34:00] by me. Seriously though. I’m out. I’m not big on promoting stuff that I don’t personally use and believe in. So instead, I’m going to just quickly tell you about something of mine.

Specifically, my fitness book for men, Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. Now this book has sold over 350, 000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of guys build their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over three million copies. 1, 100 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average.

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Play. Now, speaking of audible, I should also mention that you can get the audio [00:35:00] book 100 percent free when you sign up for an audible account, which I highly recommend that you do. If you’re not currently listening to audio books, I love them myself because they let me make the time that I spend doing stuff like commuting, prepping food, walking my dog and so forth.

So much more valuable and productive. So if you want to take Audible up on this offer and get my book for free, then simply go to www.bitlybitly.com/free BBLs, and that will take you to Audible and then you just click the sign up today and Save button, create your account. And voila, you get to listen to Bigger, leaner, stronger for Free.