In this podcast I interview Jordan from The Art of Charm and we talk about how to increase confidence in dealing with others without being a douche and how to build genuine relationships that will improve your work, social, and love life.
JORDAN’S WEBSITE: http://theartofcharm.com/
What did you think of this episode? Have anything else to share? Let me know in the comments below!
Transcript:
Mike Matthews: [00:00:00] Hey, it’s Mike. And this podcast is brought to you by Legion, my line of naturally sweetened and flavored workout supplements. Now, as you probably know, I’m really not a fan of the supplement industry. I’ve wasted thousands and thousands of dollars over the years on worthless supplements that Basically do nothing and I’ve always had trouble finding products actually worth buying and especially as I’ve gotten more and more educated as to what actually works and what doesn’t and eventually after complaining a lot, I decided to do something about it and start making my own supplements.
The exact supplements I myself have always wanted a few of the things that make my products unique are one They’re 100 percent naturally sweetened and flavored which I think is good because while our official sweeteners May not be as harmful as some people claim there is research that suggests regular consumption of these chemicals May not be good for our health particularly our gut health So I like to just play it safe and sweeten everything with stevia and erythritol which are natural sweeteners [00:01:00] that actually have health benefits, not health risks.
Two, all ingredients are backed by peer reviewed scientific research that you can verify for yourself. If you go on our website and you check out any of our product pages, you’re going to see that we explain why we’ve chosen each ingredient, and we cite all supporting evidence in the footnotes, so you can go.
Look at the research for yourself and verify that we’re doing the right thing. Three, all ingredients are also included at clinically effective dosages, which are the exact dosages used in those studies that prove their effectiveness. This is very important because while a molecule might be proven to, let’s say, improve your workout performance, not all dosages are going to improve your workout performance.
If you take too little, You’re not going to see any effects. You have to take the right amounts and the right amounts are the amounts proven to be effective in scientific research. And four, there are no proprietary blends, which means you know exactly what you’re buying when you buy our supplements. All of our formulations are a hundred percent transparent in terms of ingredients and dosages.
So if that sounds interesting to you and you want to check it out, [00:02:00] then go to www. legionathletics. com. That’s L E G I O N. And if you like what you see and you want to buy something, use the coupon code podcast, P O D C A S T. And you will save 10 percent on your order. Also, if you like what I have to say in my podcast, then I guarantee you’ll like my books.
I make my living primarily as a writer. So as long as I can keep selling books, then I can keep writing articles over at muscle for life and Legion and recording podcasts and videos like. This and all that fun stuff. Now I have several books, but the place to start is bigger leaner, stronger if you’re a guy and thinner leaner, stronger if you’re a girl.
Now these books, they’re basically going to teach you everything you need to know about dieting, training and supplementation to build muscle, lose fat and look and feel great without having to give up all the foods you love or live in the gym, grinding away at workouts you hate. And you can find my books everywhere.
You can buy books online like Amazon, audible I books, Google play Barnes and Noble. Kobo and so forth. [00:03:00] And if you’re into audio books like me, you can actually get one of my audio books for free with a 30 day free trial of audible. To do that, go to www dot muscle for life. com forward slash audio books.
That’s muscle for life. com forward slash audio books. And you’ll see how to do this. So thanks again for taking the time to listen to my podcast. I hope you enjoy it and let’s get to the show.
All right. Hey Jordan, it’s good to talk to you again. Thanks for coming on the show.
Jordan Harbinger: Hey, likewise, thanks for the opportunity.
Mike Matthews: Yeah, totally, you know, I like having a variety of guests on the show as opposed to just, you know, there’s only so much that can be said about picking the weight up and putting it down and, you know, controlling your food intake.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no kidding, right? Diet and exercise. But if it were it so easy, I would look like you instead of like me.
Mike Matthews: There’s, there’s a lot to be said [00:04:00] for being that easy actually. I mean, yeah, there are a lot of little things that you put together and it all works, but it’s mainly, it’s kind of like, you know, the old saying is the best diet is the one that you’re going to stick to kind of thing.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there’s truth in
Mike Matthews: that. I mean, there,
Jordan Harbinger: there is. People always go, oh, you do CrossFit. Oh, that’s, you know, it’s not the optimal, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I’m like, wait, wait, wait, just, shh, stop. It’s fun, so I go. Yeah, and they’re like, oh, yeah, fair enough. Like, yeah, I’m sure if I did these different Olympic lifts, I could work out less and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
But here’s the thing, I’m not gonna go to the gym and do that because that looks really boring. So, I’m just not gonna work out at all.
Mike Matthews: Yeah, no, I understand. I mean, that’s, that’s something that in emailing with people that I’m not, I’m not an anti CrossFit person. I think if you have a bad coach, it’s a bad idea and it can be dangerous but if you have a good coach and you’re not going to be stupid about it I understand that.
Having fun, you know, a group thing that you can go do with your friends and stuff and especially if you’re not If, cause maybe it’s not the best way to, you know, build to maximize muscle size or maximize strength, [00:05:00] but you can, you can definitely get, get in shape doing it. And if you, if that’s what, if you know, if it’s, you enjoy it and you look forward to it, then that’s for you.
Like for me, I enjoy weightlifting. I like waking up early. I look forward to it. So it works.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It, it makes sense if you really like it, but, and then that’s the same thing we teach at the art of charm, right? A lot of people go, Oh, this is going to be painful. This is going to be awful. And if you’re going up and approaching strangers, or you’re a guy trying to date women, or you’re trying to pitch your business, or you’re trying to sell yourself in some way.
It can be really awful, but if you gamify it, you make it fun, you get some positive feedback from it, then you won’t be able to stop doing it, which is great, and it’s the same thing with working out, right? You hate vegetables until you just tell your brain, these are good, and you enjoy them, and then eventually that sort of sticks.
And now I’m the guy that’s like, can we have brussels sprouts for dinner? And my girlfriend’s like okay. And my mom’s like, who are you? Right? Because when I was a kid, I would throw those down in the garbage disposal the second she went to the bathroom.
Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, you know, there was actually, there was a guy I forget his name.
[00:06:00] He was like a known chef guy, a celebrity chef guy. And he wrote a book where, I forget the name of it, The Man Who Ate Everything or something like that. And his thing was, He made the list of all of his foods that he didn’t like. I mean, nasty shit, monkey brains and whatever. And he had to eat every one, I think it was eight times or 10 times or something like that.
There was some number that he had to eat each one of those foods on his list that he hated the most and made it a whole fun thing and whatever, one around the world eating all this weird stuff and found that, I think it was around 8 to 10 times. Maybe he had to eat the stuff 20 times or 15 times. I mean, it took him an entire year to do this.
And in the end, what he found, that if you eat something enough, with only a couple exceptions, he came to actually like all these foods that he hated. So, it’s a similar thing. Anything that’s uncomfortable at first, is not fun. I mean, it’s, who, likes, you know, sucking at something or feeling awkward or you know, if something, whether it’s food, it tastes like crap, but you do it enough and it becomes comfortable.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that’s true. [00:07:00] And obviously the game here for you guys is to get people interested in nutrition and fitness and actually make a habit out of it. Otherwise they’re just listening to you talk about it and reading you write about it with no tangible result, which is bad news.
Mike Matthews: Exactly. And so let’s, let’s segue into what you do.
So, cause I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, some, some of the readers and listeners are going to be familiar with our previous interview. Maybe they’ll have come across to just, you know, on their internet travels, but so what exactly is the art of charm?
Jordan Harbinger: The art of charm essentially is a company that teaches, this is going to sound like mumbo jumbo, but basically we teach emotional intelligence in a way that anyone can learn and master.
So what I mean by that is. And we specialize in, in men and dating advice and relationship building and networking for business and things like that. So, guys will come in and anyone from SEAL Team 6, a Green Beret type guy, to entrepreneurs, to just college guys that are like, Hey, I know that my people skills are what is going to differentiate me in the job market, so, so teach me, Yoda, [00:08:00] right?
So, we have a team of coaches, therapists all star performers here, performance coaches. That teach people how to really sell themselves, manage first impressions, create really meaningful, solid connections with people. And we do that day in and day out in our week long residential program. So guys flying from all over the world.
In fact, I’m looking at my, my classroom now, and I’ve got quite an eclectic mix of guys from Denmark, Australia, the U S and Canada. Some doctors, a couple doctors, one is a surgeon military, U. S. Marine Special Forces U. S. Army Intel, and who actually got wounded in action in Afghanistan, as well as a couple of just like software engineer types, and, and a sniper.
So it’s a really unique mix, really unique mix, and a pro hockey player actually, a pro hockey player as well, I forgot about Mike. Essentially a really eclectic mix of guys, not guys that tie their shoelaces together and not guys that have duct tape on their glasses and you know, there, there’s a few software [00:09:00] engineers here and there for sure, no doubt, but, but it’s not just guys who are like, I’ve never had a girlfriend.
It’s usually guys who go, wait a minute, there’s a thing out there that teaches a skill that I don’t know that will give me a 5 percent edge or a 2 percent edge or a 1 percent edge in life. Where do I sign up? And so it’s really. Go getters, action takers, high performers that we see come through here.
Mike Matthews: That’s great, yeah. So it’s not just your typical Cause you know, you have these dating I guess that’s a whole world, right? Like all these pick up artists, all this cheesy type. Yeah, I guess that’s like the dark side of your, what you’re doing, huh?
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and it’s just like the cheesy side too, cause guys go, How come your programs are residential and I can learn from this guy over the internet?
And I’m like, cause that guy just wants your money. Yeah, he’s just
Mike Matthews: gonna sell you a bunch of videos.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, like, you, if you think that going up and creating a meaningful relationship is as simple as going, Hey, who lies more? Then you are probably beyond repair and I can’t help you. Slash, I don’t want to, right?
And, but if, if you’re a guy that’s That thinks that that stuff is your only resort, [00:10:00] well the Art of Charm is the sort of white hat alternative. And there’s a reason that people fly in from all over the world, even though in their own backyard, in their own country, there’s probably some quote unquote dating coach who’s really just a pickup guy who’s like, I’ll go to the club with you for 500, and we’re not that.
So, yes, there’s that, but that stuff is, it really misses the point, because the core sort of belief system, or the core, I guess one of the core values of the Art of Charm is that your beliefs influence your actions, which influence your results. So it’s all about mindset, right? If you don’t like vegetables, and you tell yourself that vegetables are gross, you’re not gonna eat vegetables, which is the belief influencing the action.
And what happens if you don’t eat vegetables? Let’s oversimplify it. You don’t You don’t get the nutrients you need, you can’t build muscle, you get fat, you get soft, whatever. Right? That’s a belief system in place. If you just, if you go, Eat vegetables, you idiot! Then the person might be able to force themselves to eat vegetables for a few days, They’ll get some, and then they’ll slip, and then they’ll fail.
Inevitably is same thing with working out if they [00:11:00] go working out is awesome. I can’t stop doing it I wish I had more time to do it. I wish I could do it more without overtraining myself That’s a good place to be right? Yeah, there’s a lot of people that love working out They would do it all day if they could but they know that’s actually bad for them, too So they don’t but they have very healthy mindsets.
They’re in great shape They eat well because they’re taking care of their body If they’re forcing themselves to go to the gym and every minute that they’re there they’re like, This blows. I can’t wait to go home and eat a gallon of ice cream. Those people do not get fit and they don’t stay that way, that’s for damn sure, right?
So. Again, belief systems in every area of your life influence your actions, which influence your results. It’s no different with social skills. And that’s what we’re training you here in at the art of charm.
Mike Matthews: Yeah, that’s great. And I mean, that really, there is that point of you have to find the right balance and you just even on the fitness side of things where I just actually talked a little bit about in, in my, in the previous podcast where you have some of these people that get so overly consumed with just you know, building muscle or, or, or losing fat [00:12:00] or, or just looking a certain way where they become, I mean, to me, I think that’s like, that’s the dark side of the fitness industry that I really don’t like is the body dysmorphia type stuff where people get so harsh on themselves and they nitpick themselves to death or they turn into just narcissistic maniacs that.
You’d read some of their captions and you’d think that, like, this is Alexander the Great or something. Like, oh no, it’s just some dude who knows how to bench press.
Jordan Harbinger: Right. Like, check out my six pack that no one gave him out. Not even that. No, no, no,
Mike Matthews: dude. That’s even, that’s, that’s tame. That’s like, whatever.
That’s Bush, that’s some
Jordan Harbinger: Bush League bragging, right? No,
Mike Matthews: no, yeah, yeah. No, I’m talking about, like you would have a wall of text talking about like achieving your dreams and you can do anything and you know, taking over the world like,
Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah,
Mike Matthews: no, not really, dude. You just pick the weight up, you put it down, you eat the food and that’s, you know,
Jordan Harbinger: yeah, it’s, there is, there’s a lot of that.
And even in business, there’s a lot of that too. There’s, I’ll ask a lot of entrepreneur. I talked to a [00:13:00] ton of entrepreneurs and. There’s some that are really successful and there’s some that aren’t, of course, and we keep in touch on Facebook, especially with Art of Charm alumni, and I can tell when their business is going well and when it’s not, because I’ll say, what do you, what are your plans on people’s birthdays?
I always send them a message. And I’m just like, what’s, what’s up? You know, what’s, what are your birthday goals? And a successful entrepreneur is usually like, well, I’m gonna get this app out and I’m gonna launch this to an audience of a hundred thousand, hope to turn it into 200,000 within 18 months.
Right. And then I talk to the want entrepreneurs, like, especially guys who sell, sell entrepreneurs. Yeah. Entrepreneurs, guys who sell like, like supplements online that they made up or whatever. Or like some multilevel marketing guys
Mike Matthews: pills in a bottle that’s like, I know the guy.
Jordan Harbinger: Pills in a bottle. Yeah. And multi level marketing types.
And they always go world domination. The sky is the limit in the world. The only limits are those that I put on myself. And I’m like, you will be in the exact same place next year. And I can look at our Facebook thread and I [00:14:00] can see like the year before that they were like, I’m going to travel and be a freedom lifestyle entrepreneur.
And the year before that, they’re like, I’m going to make a million dollars. I just
Mike Matthews: read four hour work week and it changed my life.
Jordan Harbinger: And it’s just like guys, you’re killing me here because it really is just like all this woo woo sort of like non actionable motivational stuff that just wears off after not a very long period of time.
And you can tell those guys just are not successful. It’s all about habit building and. Successful habits require plans and goals not just like my dreams are gonna come true this year, you know, it’s like spare me
Mike Matthews: Yeah, I know. I mean I I maybe it’s just my personality or whatever But I I’m all for goal setting and having big goals But I don’t really sit around and think about it too much Like I just know where I’m going and 95 percent of my attention is on the task at hand In front of me.
You know what I mean? Like, what am I doing right now? I’m writing this thing because I have to get this little step done and [00:15:00] there are 2, 000 more steps that need to occur before the big thing occurs. So who cares about the big thing? You know what I mean?
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of course. Yeah, that’s, that’s for sure true.
Yeah. And people are, they, people love to get their dopamine, so they’re like, Yeah. I want to focus on the big thing now, and then later on forget about it and go eat.
Mike Matthews: You know, there’s actually research on that, there’s I’m probably actually going to write a blog post on it one of these days that showed that people, what it boiled down to, is that people that talk about their goals more, or talk about what they’re going to do more, are less likely to actually do it.
Yeah. And yeah, I mean, researchers, one of the theories was that it’s just because and this psychologically makes sense that when you are telling somebody about your, Oh, this is what you’re going to do. And especially start pumping it up and how you’re going to dominate the world and you’re going to be buying 10 Lambos and whatever.
And then people, you know, like, Oh, that’s so sick. You’re so amazing. And you get that gratification. Then the gratification that you’d normally have to work for, like if you go and do it and you go buy 10 Lambos and people are going to, you know, they’re going to be like, wow, that’s pretty impressive for what it [00:16:00] is.
But just by talking about it, you get some of that gratification, which kind of, you know, takes a little bit of the wind out of your sails to actually get an action and do it.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And that’s dangerous because it’s. I love talking about my goals and I love talking about my aspirations, but usually I’m talking about it when I’m not taking action on it.
And I think a lot of people they’ll substitute that talk for action. And if people are people, if people are wondering what this is about, how many times have you heard somebody say that they’re going to go to the gym tomorrow or that they’re going to start working out or they’re going to start eating right, or they’re going to start a business.
And if you’re a dude, you’ve heard your friends be like, yeah, you know what? Next time I see that girl, I’m just going to like walk up there. And how many times has that actually happened?
Mike Matthews: Right. And how many times? I only know a couple of guys that actually just, they just, they truly don’t give a shit and they’ll do anything.
They don’t care. They’re not afraid to get rejected.
Jordan Harbinger: Right, but they don’t talk about it either. They don’t go next time I see her. I’m gonna walk up there No, it’s just you’re at the bar and you’re like, where did Jordan go? Oh, he’s already walking over to that girl
Mike Matthews: Yeah,
Jordan Harbinger: I remember we saw her last week.
[00:17:00] You know, it’s it’s like it’s a thing that people who are all talk I mean, it’s just I can predict business success basically about how much BS you’re spilling around And, you know, reading people for a living helps with that. And of course, running a successful business helps with that, but it really does give you that.
I know that research, right? It, that gives you that dopamine and you’re just patting yourself on the back prematurely. And then you go back to your autopilot world where you don’t do squat.
Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. So let’s, let’s get back to what you do. So teaching people like, is it, would you say you’re teaching people how to be confident you’re teaching them.
Would you say you’re teaching them how to be charming like it kind of reminds me of like the what’s the famous Carnegie book, like how to win friends and influence people or whatever. Like, tell me a little bit more about I’m just curious. Like, how does this process work? What? Give me some inside scoop.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so basically we teach confidence and emotional intelligence. And so what that means is I’m not teaching you which fork to use. The art of charm team’s not going to teach [00:18:00] you, Oh, hold the door open. I mean, it’s not a little, it’s not etiquette. It’s charm is essentially getting the answers, getting things that you want out of life without having to.
Manipulate your way to getting them essentially, right? So getting people to like and trust you in a very authentic way is going to open far more doors than just being like a loud baller who bullies his way to what he wants. And you see that in every aspect of business from Hollywood. To even to to, to high finance where I used to work as an attorney to the law game.
I mean, people are buying you whether or not you’re an entrepreneur or not. And if you don’t have that aspect of yourself together, you will limit your success. Period. There’s a lot of startups. I live in San Francisco now. Art of charm is down in LA, but. There’s a lot of startups and man, these guys are geniuses and they’re doing all kinds of just insane, really potentially world changing projects.
No one will ever find out. They’ll probably never get off the ground [00:19:00] or they’ll get swallowed alive by a competitor because they’re just weird and they can’t sell themselves. Therefore they can’t sell their product. They can’t create the relationships that they need. And there’s a competitor out there that has like one charismatic front man.
That’s like, here’s a cup that measures the calories that you put in it. And it’s like, Oh my God, that’s amazing. And other people
Mike Matthews: are
Jordan Harbinger: like, yeah. And other people are like, but we invented that already. And it’s like, shut up, nerd. No one’s talking to you. Right? Cause no one knows who those people are. And they’re sitting there going, this will change the dynamics of blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Whatever. No one cares. What does it do? Yeah. And so, we teach you how to translate your, what’s in your brain to effective communication. Whether or not you’re an engineer or a you know, street performer. I
Mike Matthews: like it. I wanna check. I mean, I haven’t even, I, this is a an area that I From mainly mainly from a writing standpoint have studied a fair amount in just being persuasive in in terms of words I mean, I you know, I think of Cialdini’s stuff like influence and whatever But I’ve I would say I’ve probably read [00:20:00] 10 or 15 books on the subject of just persuasion and influence and I think it’s a pretty fascinating especially some of the work out there that’s a that has a good basis in science and a good basis in research because it is pretty fascinating a lot of it is like Oh, duh, of course, kind of stuff, but it’s not until, until you see it, like once you see it, you immediately know, Oh, that works.
Like I don’t even, I don’t even have to even test it. I know that works just because, you know, you and I are in many ways programmed in the same ways. At least we’re programmed culturally in very, very similar ways to respond to different things in different ways. And there are definitely, I think, just cues that we all come hardwire with that either, you know, Instinctively inspire trust and liking or do the opposite.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. What are some
Mike Matthews: examples? What’s some stuff that like, you know, that that, that the re that the listeners that we could apply, like, you know, if we wanted to make I mean obviously you can never make someone like you, but if we wanted to have a better chance of having somebody like [00:21:00] us or wanna listen to what we have to say.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You know, it’s funny ’cause you, you just touched on something that I haven’t, hadn’t really thought of in a while. If you’re not, you’re either moving towards people liking and trusting you or you’re moving away. There’s really no sort of neutral ground. You know, a lot of people think like, oh, I’m, I’m minimizing contact.
Even
Mike Matthews: if you sit there and say nothing, I guess you’re still probably like, there’s maybe a chance it’s neutral, but also that’s probably more likely for people to think that you’re antisocial.
Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, exactly. So a lot of people are like, oh, I don’t want to encounter my boss at this work party. I don’t want to encounter my boss at this event, so I’m not going to go or I’m going to lay low.
There’s always going to be somebody that’s moving towards it and somebody that’s moving away. No matter what you do, if you think just avoiding a situation, and think about it like this. If you are a single guy or a single girl, and you don’t want people to not like you, what do you do? You, maybe you stay home and you don’t go to social events.
Well, how is that working for your social life? You’re actually, your social skills are actually deteriorating. Your social circle is actually [00:22:00] deteriorating. Your dating life You’re not, you’re not maintaining a neutrality, you’re actually moving away from, from any development whatsoever. So it’s the same thing I know that, I know that.
In every field. If I have
Mike Matthews: no social life, all I do is work and spend time with my family.
Jordan Harbinger: Right, yeah, I hear you. And so, same thing probably with working out. It’s like, oh, I don’t want to eat something that’s bad for me, so I’m not going to eat anything at all. Well, actually, that’s just, and you know more than I do.
That’s just as bad for your physique as not taking in zero calories is probably even worse than taking in bad calories, depending on how much you’re talking about.
Mike Matthews: Well, yeah, sure. I mean, or, or a different analogy could be people like when they’re dieting to lose weight, a lot of times they think that they cannot eat certain types of foods under any circumstances.
They think that like, you know, a square of chocolate because of the sugar and because of the magic voodoo. in chocolate is going to automatically make them fat. So they’ll go really hard in restricting foods. And then, I mean, you only can take that. Yeah, [00:23:00] sure. Maybe you could live without chocolate for a bit, but when you’re restricting, when anything that tastes good to you, when you think that you can’t eat, you have to be low carb.
You have to eat on some weird schedule. You can only eat these certain types of proteins and vegetables. Some people, they get. So they go so hard in restricting it, then it just flips in the other direction and they just end up binging. Whereas a more moderate, you know, just having a little bit of thing that a little bit of what you like every day, making sure that it all just kind of fits is, is that is the way to go.
Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Yeah. Excellent. I think that you’re, you’re probably onto some exact same sort of similar concept that we teach or that we use at AOC as well. Cause you know, like, like we had just sort of touched on, You’re moving towards or away, and if you’re not working on yourself, you’re deteriorating. I mean, that’s the same with a physical skill with, as it is with your physique, it’s the same as with any, any, even emotional intelligence.
So a lot of people, they’ll do something like, oh, I don’t want to embarrass myself, so they’ll avoid a situation, or I don’t want to trigger anxiety, and I don’t like the bar, I don’t [00:24:00] like the bar and club scene, and that’s fine, you know, I don’t either, but You have to push yourself through those uncomfortable situations, not even just bars or, or clubs or things like that.
But if you’re not dating because you’re not meeting anybody that you like, so you’re sitting at home, well, how’s that working out for you?
Mike Matthews: Right.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And so some of the things that we’ll teach, you know, even married guys who come through the art of charm is, is simply. How to create and maintain strong social circles.
And if you’re not consistently refining the way that you show up to people, the way that you appear to people, then you’re probably not working on yourself at all. Because it’s not about a fake persona. It’s about figuring out what makes you authentic and how to communicate that most effectively.
Because really, we’re putting on a mask all of the time when we go out. And the goal of AOC, Art of Charm, is really to remove that mask as much as possible. It’s so hard to do. But if you think about it, Everybody has this. When you’re at home by yourself, you’re probably, like, singing. If you’re at home with your wife, you’re, like, singing and dancing and messing around.
And, you know, you’re being [00:25:00] goofy. And then you go out in public and, yeah, you’re probably not always like that, right? Yeah. Maybe that’s because you’re worried that people will think it’s a little bit strange. But really, if you did the same level of silliness with your wife at the mall as you did at home, there would be zero consequences in reality.
Right. Right. Depending on how often that involves being naked, probably. You know, you, you really can get away with a lot more. It depends where you go. If you go in the changing
Mike Matthews: room, you can get away with it.
Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And so it, it really does depend on. A lot of what’s inside. It’s again your belief system.
How much can you get away with? I mean you actually spend and we don’t notice this because we’re so used to it doing it through our whole lives You expend a lot of energy Being fake, even if you’re not thinking i’m being fake. You’re just behaving yourself You’re not doing what naturally comes to you that requires energy.
That’s why people who have to work in offices and stuff are tired at the end of the day, they’re using a lot of brain power, they’re using a lot of willpower, but they’re not just being themselves otherwise. They’re being professional, and they’re in That’s why you can sit through a [00:26:00] meeting and at the end you’re like, I am over it, I am tired.
Because you’re not you have to bottle everything in that whole time. Why is sitting down in a chair and looking at a PowerPoint taxing? Because you’re forcing yourself out of your actual nature as a human. That’s why. For like 8 hours. That’s why.
Mike Matthews: Yeah, I mean I can totally relate to that. I guess it’s maybe, it’s a personality thing for me.
Been someone I mean pretty I just always kind of never really cared that much what people thought about me So I tended to just kind of behave. However, I wanted to behave I mean, I don’t go out of my way to be rude or whatever, but I’m that guy that if somebody is saying something that I think is, you know They shouldn’t be saying I’m gonna say something or my sense of humor is I grew up on the internet.
So my sense of humor is What you’d expect from someone that grew up on the internet And you know, but I find that a lot of people They find that refreshing that I’m not an uptight type of person. I don’t, I don’t, I can be professional if I need to, I just don’t really have to. There’s only, there are only very [00:27:00] select meetings with certain people where I know that I have to be professional.
Otherwise, I’m just me, I say what I say, and you know, I make the jokes that I make. And if people don’t like it, then okay, I guess they can just not be around me. But it’s big. I find that easier. I mean, it’s not that I go out of my way to offend, but this is the way I am. I’m not gonna you know, like you say, I’m not gonna try to be someone that I’m not for eight hours a day just so other people can approve of me.
You know what I mean?
Jordan Harbinger: Of course. Of course. So, go ahead.
Mike Matthews: I was just gonna ask so in this world though, like, that’s, that’s kind of how I guess I, I always was. I was just kind of a, You know, didn’t give a shit about what people thought and just did what I thought was right kind of person, but Other people they seem to I mean the people I know are much more wrapped up with reputation and what other people think and you know If something gets posted on Facebook that they think is a little bit off like I’ll sometimes I’ll comment on friends stuff on Facebook And say something that they don’t want their other people like they don’t want other other people to see that [00:28:00] That, you know, that I said that because then they might think that they’re kind of weird being associated with somebody that would make a joke like that.
And, do you think, is this something that anyone can learn or, you know, is, is charm, because when you think of charm you usually think of just that, that, you know, kid that grew up, everyone always liked him and then he was the, you know, the high school either maybe he was the high school, you know, football star guy or now he’s the politician or whatever.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of course, it is learnable, and here’s the thing, yeah, you’re right, people think, Well, wait, no, that guy was cool in, in high school, and now he’s great now, or maybe he’s not so great now, and, but everybody falls from grace. But, people think, yeah, you’re born with it, but here’s the thing, that’s, one, it’s a, it’s a misunderstanding, and it’s also a, an excuse at the same time, right?
So, oh, I wasn’t born with it, well, okay, maybe, but It’s easy to say the same thing about being tall and playing basketball. But it’s, it’s faulty logic, right? Oh, he’s really tall, so he’s [00:29:00] really good at basketball. I know a lot of tall people that suck at basketball. Also, Spud Webb, so scoreboard, right? That guy was like 5’5 5’6 And he was a pro, he was a pro on the Bulls with Michael Jordan.
So, it doesn’t really matter if someone was born with it or not. The other thing is, no one’s born with that. It’s not a nature versus nurture type of thing most of the time. People who seem to have it younger as a kid, they just had different circumstances surrounding them. Yeah, I think it’d be
Mike Matthews: more of an environment thing, what they, the type of environment they grew up in.
Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. There’s circumstances that surround them that give them positive feedback, positive interactions, and I’ll give you an example. Yeah. My girl my ex girlfriend she has a little bro two little brothers, and they were in high school back when we were dating like ten years ago, and so they were like really popular, cool kids, et cetera, and she was like, That’s so weird, you know?
I was, and I didn’t get that gene. I was really quiet and not popular, and I thought, It’s not that. Think about it, you’re, you know, we’re at her house, all her friends are over, they’re all these like, [00:30:00] hot, other hot girls, right, and we’re hanging out in the pool, and her little brother’s there, socializing, splashing, being, you know, learning how to socialize around cute girls, he brings his other buddies from school in, and they’re like, dude, at Matt’s house, there’s always a ton of hot girls, and a college guy who lets us drink beer when the mom’s not there, right, because I was a dumbass and let them do that.
So, like, you know, and so, he, of course he was the cool kid, because, When he had to deal with girls his own age at school, he was like, Whatever, I just got done hanging out with a bunch of college girls. You’re, you know, this is not hard. And, and all of the guys were like, Yo, you gotta go to Matt’s house.
He’s the most popular kid around, because there’s a bunch of girls in bikinis with, You know, fully developed breasts, Hanging out in the pool, like, Everybody wanted to hang out at Matt’s house. So Matt was the cool kid, so he went to college, And he stayed that way, right? But if you were a nerdy dude, Even if you had an older sister, or you decided you were shy and you minimized contact with them, then yeah, you had some awkward experiences, and then in school, that was reflected when you got rejected [00:31:00] going to prom, or nobody asked you to the Sadie Hawkins dance.
Now, lo and behold, here you are, looking at a rejection from 8th grade, and you’re 35 or 45 years old, and when you go to look at a girl that you think is cute, but you’re afraid to talk to her, You’re not thinking, well, in my recent experience, this logical reason happened that requires me to think that this will never pan out for me.
You just go, oh, but in third grade, Jenny didn’t like me and went to the fair alone. And I felt sad, and meanwhile, that was 40 years ago, or you know, 30 years ago, and it’s still scarring you. Yeah, it’s
Mike Matthews: so buried in your subconscious at this point, you don’t even realize why you’re so nervous. Yeah,
Jordan Harbinger: but the reason is because it affected your belief system.
And your belief system is influencing your actions, which are influencing your results, boom, full circle, right? Yeah. Because your beliefs don’t change by themselves, they change Based on feedback, and the only way to get that, is to continually push yourself out there, and if you, if you get hurt once, no matter how long ago it was, and you withdraw into a shell, you will not get feedback that confirms that, and [00:32:00] also, you won’t be looking for it anyway, you’re going to be looking for something that confirms what you already believe.
Yes. You’re always going to be looking for something that confirms your belief, that’s why People think, oh, well, I have bad genetics. No, that’s just a convenient excuse. It makes you fat and all your friends are fat. Do you think all your friends really have bad genetics? No, you’re all fat because you have crappy habits.
That’s why, you know. But it has nothing to do with anything else other than you’re looking for evidence to back that up because it’s a hell of a lot easier than making real change. So guys will do that with social skills. They go, eh, well, you know, I’m pretty good with, with the opposite sex. Really? How’s that working out for you?
You’re married happily and you have kids. Great. How’s your business going, right? If there’s some area of your life that is not working out, it is a direct result of your belief systems, influencing your actions and influencing your results. Can the Art of Charm help you? Maybe. But if you decide that there’s no way because blah, blah, blah, circumstances, wah, wah, wah, then no, we’re not going to be able to help you.
No one’s going to be able to help you. And yes, then you are officially a victim. Congratulations, you’re right. No one can help you.
Mike Matthews: That sometimes is. I mean, I [00:33:00] run into that here and there. I mean, the vast majority of people that I, that I run into in my work are They’ve, they’ve experienced that, but they’re still willing to try, but I will run into that sometimes where it’s very clear that a person doesn’t particularly really even want to be helped, they just kind of want to have their, their current beliefs confirmed that you know, it’s this problem or it’s that problem or you know, it is just a genetic thing or, or whatever.
Jordan Harbinger: Indeed.
Mike Matthews: And so what you’re talking about then is it’s similar to the fitness thing in that it’s changing behavior patterns, it’s not really changing, you’re not asking people to change who they are so they can, you know, cause when I my preview, before I had gotten a little bit educated, like I said, I mean, I’ve read more, more from a, a, a standpoint of for copywriting and marketing and stuff and how to be persuasive and how to sell in that regard.
But where you’re not, you’re not trying to put on a fake, like, You know, Paul, you think of the politician where, you know, a lot of these people, they’re going to smile, shake your hand, they’re going to tell you all kinds of things, [00:34:00] but then all kinds of things that they don’t believe. But, you know, when they’re sitting around with their buddy smoking cigars, they’re just talking shit about everybody they just shook hands with.
It’s more about changing your belief. You know what I mean? Changing, changing your beliefs, which then allow you to change behavior patterns, but not necessarily, you know, changing your personality or something.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it’s the opposite of inauthentic. What we’re doing is a subtractive process at the Art of Charm.
So. What that means is, rather than adding weird layers to your personality and figuring out how to, let’s say, make you look cool in front of other people by pretending to be this, that, and the other thing, we don’t do that. We don’t need to do that. And what actually happens is we’re taking away little flavels that people have where they go, Alright.
Now I’m showing up, a client might come into AOC rather than being like, wear this cool light up necklace. We’re like, you know, all over, right. Fair amounts. Yeah. All that other bull crap. We [00:35:00] don’t do that. We go, Oh, okay. So when you get into a social situation, such as a cocktail party, you’re trying to network with entrepreneurs.
Let’s break this down. What happens? And they go, well, you know, I’m look for someone that I know. Okay. Stop there. Why? Well, it feels comfortable. Okay. How has that comfort served you? Well, it makes me feel. Or they’ll go, oh, I guess it hasn’t, I need to break out of my comfort zone. We’re like, wait, back up, why are you doing it anyway?
Well, you know, it makes me feel less shy, and so, cause I’m with somebody that I knew. And so I like it. Okay, well good. Now, what would, we know that that’s like the short circuit right there, right? So he’s, the problem is they go to the networking event, they look for someone they know, and they stay in their comfort zone there because they’re afraid of, and we’ll drill it down with questions over 60 hours.
It’s a residential program, you cannot escape. Right, we’ll drill it down to what’s really happening, and it’s usually down to something, just for an example of, well, I don’t want to feel alone. At this event because I feel like dot dot dot not worthy of other people’s time or not [00:36:00] able to sell myself adequately or need somebody there for social proof.
There’s a million reasons, but what it comes down to is a belief that you’re not good enough as you are for some reason, and we’re not gonna, you know, have a kumbaya after that, we’re gonna just figure out. A practical way to get past it and fix it with a drill or an exercise that will become a social habit that will get you past it.
You know, we’re not therapists. We have therapists on staff, but we’re not, we’re not laying you down on the couch. It’s actual practical application and that’s why we have clients like Navy SEALs and, and military intelligence because they don’t need to go. Oh, I, I did not, I didn’t get enough attention from my uncle, my dad, uncle, mom, whatever, grandma as a child.
We need them to go, oh, okay, so when I feel that I need to do this in order to short circuit that negative process and that negative feedback loop and make myself effective in that situation. Because entrepreneurs, yeah, yeah, they want to get over their stuff, but really they want to be able to sell their business so they can make money.
And so we focus on the practical. So we’re going to drill down, we’re going to take away layers, take away inauthentic masks that people wear. [00:37:00] Because when you’re connecting with somebody and you’re being fake and salesy, you’re not connecting with them. You’re trying to, but Even if that person’s like, Jordan was really cool.
They don’t really know me. They know like the personality that I had on at that time. Yeah, and a lot of people, I think
Mike Matthews: their bullshit detectors are better than a lot, than many people think, you know, when you’re trying to Yeah, of
Jordan Harbinger: course. Yeah, they are. And so if people get a whiff of that, and women are especially good at this,
Mike Matthews: You’re screwed, buddy.
That female intuition.
Jordan Harbinger: Right, you’re screwed, buddy, because if they go, Nah, that guy was cute, and he seemed cool, but something’s up.
Mike Matthews: Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: You’re, you’re done, because women aren’t gonna go, You know what, he was probably just nervous. And therefore, he came across as a little bit flighty and inauthentic, but I’ll give him another shot.
They just go, eh, that was creepy, something’s off, dot, dot, dot, I can’t gamble with my safety because I’m a female. So, next. Yeah,
Mike Matthews: especially if it’s a, you know, if it’s a girl that gets approached a lot. I mean, she’s already gonna have her guard up because she gets, you know, bullshitted so [00:38:00] much.
Jordan Harbinger: Right, and you think she hasn’t seen that before?
I mean, that might work on little starlets in Hollywood when you’re James Cameron, but if you’re trying that on anybody with two brain cells to rub together, they’re gonna go, yeah, that guy, no thanks, next. What, like, that guy, cause what you’re saying is, when you layer on a mask like that, you’re prohibiting connection with other people, of course, because you’re not really getting into rapport, you know, that’s something we teach a lot, but also, what you’re sub communicating, and it’s all about sub communication is, Hey, if you really knew me, you probably wouldn’t like me, so I chose this personality over my real one because I want to fool you.
And the girl’s going, not only is this fake, but obviously his real personality sucks, or he wouldn’t choose this one. So, I’m gonna pass, because I don’t even really like the fake one, so I’m certainly not gonna like the real one.
Mike Matthews: Yeah, that’s a very good point.
Jordan Harbinger: You know what I mean? They’re not gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and go, Of course not.
Oh, he probably feels some social anxiety, and that’s understandable, cause that happens to everyone. No, they’re gonna go, Well, if this guy’s kind of on the fence, then your real personality must suck. So I’m just gonna [00:39:00] choose the confident guy who I know is gonna be authentic and legit.
Mike Matthews: Yeah, yeah, that’s a very good point.
I totally agree with that. What are, what would you say, so you, you brought up this point of, okay, someone’s at a networking event and they want to stick to just the people they know because, you know, it makes them uncomfortable, whatever. That’s like a, that’s a, probably a common mistake that we’ve all made whether it be a networking event or a party or any sort of get together.
I mean, we’ve all experienced that before. What are a couple other common mistakes? Like, say, what’s a common mistake that whether it be approaching women or, or, or creating business relationships? You know, that you see people making and what, maybe what they should do instead.
Jordan Harbinger: I think a lot of people are always trying to, well, man, where do I even begin?
Yeah, I know. Just anything that comes out
Mike Matthews: the top of your head.
Jordan Harbinger: I know. I mean, with business relationships, people are always asking about. They’re trying to do this, there’s sort of three levels to this, or maybe there’s four. There’s the whole, like, I want this from you, like, the whole, Hey Mike, can I be on your show?
And you’re like, yeah, okay, fine. And then there’s, hey [00:40:00] Mike, why don’t I interview you, see if it works out, if the demographic overlaps and you get a lot of traffic from it, I would love to come on your show. If it makes sense to you. That’s sort of level two. It’s kind of what I did. And then there’s, or maybe that’s level three, but there’s also like these other sort of guys who are doing it wrong, where they’re like, I’d love to have you on the show.
And then you go on their show and they’re like, great. Now please post this and social media. And promote my business and sell my product on your website and you’re like, dude, what,
Mike Matthews: what just happened? Yeah, I get hit with that. I mean, I, you know, I, I, I don’t take it personally because I understand what they’re trying.
They’re trying to do what they think is, you know, right and going to work, but I get hit with that quite often.
Jordan Harbinger: But it’s like they’re trying to give you value, but really they’re not. They’re really just trying to get something and they’re veiling it in this. Cutesy clever way where it makes it look like they’re doing you a favor and then which is just a copy paste
Mike Matthews: email You’re like, yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and and it’s a trend now among internet marketers, especially because internet marketing in [00:41:00] in I know you sell things on the internet, but it is different. There’s a trend where people go, Wait a minute, I can sit home on my ass and just send like, form letters to people. Dot dot dot profit.
Right, and that’s not how it works, but that’s what other marketers sell when they teach marketing. So, and then the level up from there is like, give value! Which is this nebulous freaking comment that, And that’s why people go, I would love to promote your stuff on my outlet. And blah, blah, blah. And then you’re like yeah, but you don’t have any following.
And this is actually, now you’re just asking for my time and then you want me to share it. Have you gotten hit with the, yeah,
Mike Matthews: that’s the, have you gotten hit with the people that come to you and they’ll say, we’re putting together this crazy summit of all these experts. And you know, it’s going to be on the subject of whatever related to whatever you know you’re doing.
And we want, you know, a call from you. And really what it boils down to is they’re going to each of these people and they line them up, they get them to agree to promote what’s going to be [00:42:00] this final product, which is just interviews to all of their individual followings, you know, to try to make affiliate money where the person that the organizer, of course, is, you know, taking a big chunk of the money.
But I’ve turned those down out just straight up like I don’t like what you’re doing. I don’t agree with this kind of approach Well, if that’s what you think we’re doing then I guess you’re not a fit. I’m like what that is what you’re doing What are you talking about? And they just never write back. But
Jordan Harbinger: yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course. No, you’re you’re right There’s it’s like hey I know that you think you invented this BS, but you didn’t what it is You know what I mean? Yeah, you’re the seven there done that
Mike Matthews: week.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it’s really funny They’re like, oh, well if you don’t wanna if you don’t want to spread your message to everyone it’s like Dude, I know what you’re doing is forcing all of us morons to promote you and mail it out.
And actually just make free money for
Mike Matthews: you. Like, really, we’re giving you all the content and then we’re just promoting for you so you can make money. To
Jordan Harbinger: our own audience? Yes. And then, and, and what do you do? You what, sign up for Thanks for the help, buddy. You signed up for a [00:43:00] free conference call and then, like, made a spreadsheet with all of our names on it?
That is
Mike Matthews: actually what it is. And yeah, I totally agree on that point. I mean, that’s ridiculous. It is a ridiculous thing. Neil Patel He runs quick sprout calm and some other stuff One of the one of the marketers internet marketers that I who I really like who just knows his shit and works hard He wrote a blog post on this recently one of the things I think it was like he used some sort of sensational type of title like why you think Rich people are douchebags or something like that and one of the points though as he was saying is like when you’re approaching somebody That’s successful a business person or whatever Always think always look for what you can give like what can you actually truly give them?
don’t just come in asking for things right away because You know, if you have any sort of success in a field, you get that all the time. And even if it doesn’t get you all worked up, you don’t, it’s just, you know, you have to, if you’re the person approaching that, that successful person, you have to realize that their time is short and they get people wanting free stuff [00:44:00] all the time.
So if you come in really actually willing to give something before even asking to get anything without necessarily even the expectation of getting anything, that puts you in a much better position.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah, you’re right. In fact, this happened to me last night, and I’m going to give you this as an example.
The guy is a bad example because he actually is a great person, but it came out super weird. And I’ll let me, I’m going to actually go into my Facebook right now and grab the message thread, so that I can sort of share it in an abbreviated fashion. Alright, so this guy hits me up out of the blue, and he’s, he goes, Wait, where’s the start of this giant thread?
I’m not gonna read the whole thing of course, but I was like, Hey, thanks for listening to the show, cause he like wrote me some random, Thanks, I love your show, email. And I was like, cool man, spread the word on iTunes if you would. And he goes, I don’t use iTunes, but I’m going to do you one better. I really love your show, but it’s [00:45:00] probably not converting as much business as it should, because I’m not interested in buying any of your products.
First of all, don’t tell somebody that and then ask them for something. But anyway, he goes, I’m totally interesting
Mike Matthews: way to begin.
Jordan Harbinger: Interesting approach. You basically
Mike Matthews: are not good at selling your stuff. So let me wear you real quick.
Jordan Harbinger: And I’m like, thanks guy who doesn’t run his own business telling me. How, and not that I can’t learn anything, but honestly, try, when, when I, this is a multi seven figure company and you’re going to tell me that what I’m doing that’s made all that money is, yeah, it’s not working for you.
Well, maybe you’re not really our target demo, but, but I, I digress. And then it’s like, I’m interested in this stuff, but you know, I don’t really think about coming to your program at the Art of Charm because I think that, you know, you haven’t convinced me enough. And I’m thinking like, well. You know, I’m sold out four months in advance, what else do we need to do?
He goes, my offer to you is this, I’m down to help I don’t want any money and I don’t want to work with you officially, but I want to meet with you and chat. And I’m thinking, oh my god. I know what you think you’re doing, you think [00:46:00] you’re offering me a lot of value, but what you’re asking is for a meeting of my in person meeting with me and the value proposition of getting
Mike Matthews: killed and skinned, so
Jordan Harbinger: Right, and I’m thinking, so you don’t want a job, you don’t want to let me quote unquote hire you, but you still want my time.
Do, keep selling it, buddy! Right? And then I go, what do you have in mind in a nutshell? He goes, are you asking for recommendations now on Facebook? I said, yes. And he’s like, well, off the top of my head, the pitch is off, you need to use videos, which we already do, and also you need different plugs in your show.
And I’m thinking like, that’s so vague, that’s not helpful, there’s nothing there, and that’s what I had to pry out of you? What am I gonna get out of you when I meet with you in person? And then I was like, well, what else do you have? He’s like, well, I haven’t really thought about it. So wait a minute. You want an in person meeting with me because I’m doing everything wrong, but you really haven’t thought about how we would fix it.
Now you’re just really, really blowing it. And then I go, cool, I’ll forward this [00:47:00] to marketing. And he’s like, well, don’t get me wrong. I mean, I love this. And then he sort of backtracks a bunch and he’s like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, thanks for your time. And then he’s like, I don’t understand why you’re not more stoked about this.
He just flat out said it. And I was like, this is one of the,
Mike Matthews: I haven’t had one even this weird. This is really weird.
Jordan Harbinger: It’s weird, right? Yeah. And I, I just replied because he kept going and going and going. Yeah, more patience than I would have, I would
Mike Matthews: have, like, politely just ended it, you know, a bit ago, personally.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, I know. It’s, honestly, it’s I, I do humor people because I have learned things from people that maybe have a crappy pitch. Oh, yeah, you know, I’m
Mike Matthews: totally open to I, I, any suggestion, anything, like, I, I’ve gotten so many good suggestions and so much good feedback from people on books, on everything that I do, and, you know, there’s, when it’s this, the, the whole tone of this conversation is just completely off.
And you know that where this is going.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it’s, and, and, you know, honestly, I asked him, I was like, how did you find us and all this stuff? Trying to give him a chance to sort of like [00:48:00] redo this whole, whole botch. And he’s like, you know, he’s like, I’m a consultant, I’m a coach. And I’m like, yeah, you and everybody else though, what have you done?
Show me the money, right? Yeah. You’re a coach. Okay. Got it. But what have you built? Why should I believe you? Where’s your credibility? Right. And I straight up told him that, and he’s like. No, there’s no risk to you. I just want to give you a helping hand, and I’m like, I’m not, I don’t even care. I would rather give you a thousand dollars and lose it than meet with you for three hours and find out it was a waste of time.
And he’s like, you could step up your marketing the next day with my recommendations, and I’m like, you don’t have any! You just told me you haven’t even thought about this yet! And so, it’s like, I straight up said, how would you give me the plan for doing so? Well, I could write it up, but I’d rather meet in person.
I know. Now we get the real deal. You just want to meet. You don’t actually have any value from me yet. You just want to hang out with me. I can’t afford it. I’m sorry. So, I told him no thanks. And I told him, email me, I’ll connect you with my marketing team. [00:49:00] Because I know what’s going to happen. I’m going to put my marketing specialist in touch with him.
Which, by the way, is the perfect person to handle this particular query. Because he’s trying to help with marketing. And he’s going to go, nah, and he’s going to blow the guy off. Meaning, he really just wanted to have a beer with me, and not actually give me any help. Right. And I told him, I’m like, by the way, I get this every single day.
And he was like, oh. Thinking like, you know, and that’s, that’s the thing. Prime, prime failure of perception, is we might walk up to a girl and be like, I’m an engineer, I’m in good shape, and you walk up to a girl and you’re like, Hey, what, what are you drinking? And she goes, I’m busy. And you go, what a bitch, ugh.
Here’s the thing, you just did what every other guy did for the last pretty much 10 to 12 years of her life. Right. She’s done being like, oh, nice to meet you, gotta go. She’s over it. Yeah. You know what? And she doesn’t know that you’re not a crazy person like the last guy that talked to her seven minutes ago.
And it opens the conversation
Mike Matthews: in exactly the same way.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:00] Right, she doesn’t know that. So you go this is terrible, she doesn’t understand me. Because as guys, if a woman walked up and was like, Hey, you’re really cute, do you wanna go out sometime? We’d be like, Oh my god, hell yeah! Where do I sign up? But meanwhile, every guy who walks up to her and says that is like, I, I, I mean, you might as well say, You want some D?
Because she already knows what you’re trying to get at. That doesn’t work? You don’t teach that? It does, but, you know, shh, that’s like advanced level. Oh, okay. I don’t wanna give that away on the show. No, but, you know, it’s, it’s tricky and guys don’t think about that, cause, As a perfectly nice guy, that really should work because it is authentic, but we’ve got to learn to communicate that in a different way while remaining authentic and not a douche.
And you’re right, that is why people think rich people are douchebags, because I totally did. I totally, years and years ago, I remember I was talking with Tim Ferriss because he was just starting his business and we were starting ours as well, and we were talking, and I was like, man, how do you deal with all these people talking to you and emailing you?
And he goes, I just ignore them. And I was like, Isn’t that mean and he’s like trust me and two months [00:51:00] later. I was like, oh god I can’t I’m just ignoring all these people now. I can’t deal with it So I hired an assistant because I do reply to everything. Yeah, but I can’t sit here and Pete and deal with every single person that wants to quote unquote gives me value Because it’s really just this hidden and this is that level two we were talking about That hidden way for them to get something from you, it’s not really altruistic.
They don’t realize that the opportunity cost of them not having their proverbial crap together is actually costing my company more money meeting with them than them just spitballing ideas over a beer for two hours. Yeah. Yeah, you know,
Mike Matthews: speaking of Tim Ferriss, this reminds me of something I saw on a blog of his blog post a while ago about his, some assistant, I mean the guy might still be with him, I don’t know, but the story of how his assistant came to work with him, and it’s a similar type of thing, but the guy, he had a A very well thought out, long you could say essay on, he didn’t, [00:52:00] he didn’t come across like you don’t know what you’re doing.
Of course he wasn’t stupid and do it that way. But what he did do is he gave a very long specific list of things that he thought he could help Tim with and, and, you know, this is why Tim should believe the guy could do it. And if I remember correctly, I read it a while ago, if I remember correctly, in the beginning the guy started doing the work for nothing.
He didn’t even, he didn’t ask for money for it. He showed that he actually could get stuff done. And then like Tim took him on as his assistant. And then, I don’t know if they’re still working together. But it was, they definitely, they had done several of his book launches together. And this became like a really important dude for Tim.
Somebody that he could go to and say, Hey, I need this done. And the guy figures it out, you know. But it started with really a cold email like that. But approached very differently.
Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, it’s, I know we digressed a lot and probably vented a little bit. I think a lot of people are going, what’s up with these guys?
But honestly, the message is here and the messages. You need to really actually think about how to deliver something and do it in a way that’s [00:53:00] super easy and essentially cost free. The interns that work at the art of charm and guys that get jobs here, even though I’m not hiring our guys that like literally do something where they go.
Hey Jordan, I really think this guy’s a good fit for the show. I’ve taken the liberty of digging up his contact info, drafting an email that introduces you to, but I didn’t want to send it without okay from you first because then you might feel compelled to reply. Reply okay to this message, no need for anything more, and I’ll send the intro if you’re interested.
Otherwise, just ignore this. And I’m like, okay. You know, I’d love an intro to this author not having to do anything. He did that like 20 times. And then finally, he was like, By the way, I noticed this other thing was wrong with your website. I know how to clean this up. I’ve researched it. It’ll probably improve your traffic by 5%, which in my estimation could make you a certain amount of money.
I don’t really know, because I don’t know your actual numbers. If you’d like me to do this, I will happily do it for free, but then next time I do it for another [00:54:00] one of your websites. I’d like to be paid an hourly rate of 50 bucks. And I go, cool. Do the first one for free. Then we’ll see how it pans out. He did the first one for free.
I made like, I don’t even know how many thousands of dollars. So he paid for himself 10 times over. And I was like, when can you do the next website? Now he does all my web work because I trust him. He knows what he’s doing. He ends up making me money. You know, that’s how you get a job. You don’t get a job by going, No, I know these secret things.
Oh, well, I haven’t really thought of them yet, but I probably know a lot of stuff that could help you because, you know, whatever. Oh, and also, I’m a big fan of your show. Please hire me or please spend time with me. No way, man.
Mike Matthews: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. All right. So that’s I want to I want to go over just one other mistake.
So that’s with business. We’ve covered, we’ve covered like a sort of networking type of mistake people make. And then there’s a business fake, which I totally agree with. And I’ve run into it many times myself. And there is definitely a great lesson even though it was kind of, maybe it seems a little bit like a tangent, but it’s not that there’s an important.
That’s, I think that’s a very important thing in terms of building relationships is focusing on what you can actually do for people and it’s one of the things that’s worked very [00:55:00] well for me. I, I spend a couple hours a day going through all my, I answer everything myself. And I guess my space is a little bit different.
I don’t get, I don’t get very many like, let me add value to your life. Most people are just book readers and they have fitness questions or they just want to tell me they like what I’m doing. But I never charge for that time. I do like, I answer, I, what I’m doing, a lot of other people in my position wouldn’t even bother with.
And I do it because I enjoy it and people really, really genuinely appreciate that. And it, and it really helps build, I mean, it helps build relationships at this point. Now I could say that I’ve built relationships really with, I don’t know, a couple thousand people that could email me tomorrow and I’m going to remember them and you know, and they’re going to feel like they have some sort of connection with me.
And that, and that’s definitely has a lot of value. So let’s say, let’s say with women then. So what’s, what’s a, what’s a, like a common mistake that people make with trying to get a girl, like they see a girl that they, you know, they want to speak, they want to talk to, [00:56:00] or they want to go to like them or whatever.
Yeah, there’s the standard opening with, you know, stupid pick up lines or, or stuff like that, but what’s, what’s something else? I’m, I’m, I’m genuinely curious.
Jordan Harbinger: Sure. I mean, a lot of people don’t realize that, and, and stop me if I’ve already mentioned this maybe in our other interview, but People don’t realize when the first impression is made.
Did we talk about that already? I don’t think so. No, refresh my memory. Okay. Cause I know whenever I go off on a crazy person tangent, I often lose my train of thought on everything else. But yeah, essentially people don’t know when their first impression is made. And what I mean by that is. Especially when it comes to business or when it comes to guys in the opposite sex.
Let’s say, let’s use a dating analogy because a lot of what we focus on at AOC is dating related. Essentially, guys will do the following. They walk into a bar with their friends. They spot a bunch of cute girls. They go, alright, cool, let’s get drinks. They get drinks. They circle up, they go around the place to look for other, maybe cuter girls, or different cute girls, get the lay of the land, right?
Well, here’s the problem. [00:57:00] They’re continuing, they might finish their drink, and then they might go up and talk to a couple girls, and the girls are Maybe they’re responsive, maybe they’re not. But sometimes what guys don’t realize is, they’ve already blown it. And what happens is They walked past those girls, they had a certain type of body language, they had a certain type of appearance, they had a certain way of relating to other people in the venue, relating to the server that they had the way that they ordered the drinks, the way that they behaved around their friends, the way that they behaved around others.
That was their first impression, because they became a blip on the female. Radar to use the National Geographic version, right? They, they became a blip on her radar when they walked in, but guys think we think, and humans in general think our first impression is made when we quote unquote, make our move.
So the guy thinks I’m going to go up there and talk to her and it’s going to be funny and creative and cute. No. She’s already decided whether or not she’s gonna talk to you well before then. It’s when she noticed you. So if you’re good looking, it’s probably earlier. If it wasn’t, maybe you’re lucky. In fact, you might even be luckier not being super stellar, tall, and [00:58:00] good looking.
Because you can afford to screw up a little bit more in the beginning and make it up on the back end. But the problem is guys do that all of the time. And then they go, God, why are girls so short with me? Why was she so short with me? She already decided whether or not she was gonna blow you off. Pretty much before you even had a chance to open your mouth.
And probably before you even started walking up to her, she was like, Nope. Waited 20 minutes to talk to me, being a chicken. Right? And, you know, or, Nope. Saw him be a douche to the server. Or, Nope. He ran into a guy and was like, Watch where you’re going. Total turn off. You know, you’ve already messed it up.
Mike Matthews: Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: You’ve already blown it.
Mike Matthews: Yeah.
Jordan Harbinger: And, and that could be, She might have seen you there last week acting like an a hole. Yeah. And that was your first impression. And you don’t even know. Cause you didn’t even see her.
Mike Matthews: Right.
Jordan Harbinger: So, and we do this in business situations as well, you know, we go to, we might go to a mixer or something like that, or a networking event, or we’re talking with other people and we’re blowing off folks, or we’re circling around eating appetizers or waiting for our friends to show up.
And then, you might find out that, Oh, I [00:59:00] do know the guy who’s running it. And that’s the guy you want to talk to. So you’re being weird and hovering around us. And then, as, after I talk to the guy who runs it, you’re all, Hey, my name’s John, how you doing? And I’m like, Why are you so chummy now? Whereas before, I was here hanging out with other people, you didn’t think I was worthy of your time at that point.
What’s the deal? Oh, wait a minute, you want me to introduce you to that guy. No thanks. I’m outta here. And I’m gonna remember that for a while.
Mike Matthews: Yep.
Jordan Harbinger: And, and then you’re gonna go, Oh, hey, oh, and I get this all the time, especially coming from Silicon Valley, where I live now. I’ll go to a an event in New York or something, and maybe I’m dressed informally.
Or maybe I’m even here in the city and I’m just kind of like, slumming it, which is my own, my own first impression. But somebody will go, Oh you know, I’m, I’m here to do this business thing, I’m here to network, whatever. And we’ll te we’ll chat, we might be polite, maybe they’ll blow me off or something like that.
And then, they’ll find out, Oh, wait, Jordan is one of the speakers at this event. Or, oh, wait a minute, he’s got a show that has 800, 000 people listening to it? [01:00:00] That’s wait a minute now. I want to be all chummy was before you didn’t have the time of day So what that tells me is you don’t really you’re not really interested in connecting.
You’re interested in getting something from me So I’m going to be very short with you at that point because I don’t want to deal with you If you just want my audience, why didn’t you have time for me before when we were just chit chatting? Oh because you’re the type of person I cannot rely on because you’re not actually looking to give Any value.
You just want something for yourself and people in my position and in your position, we learned to deal with that. We learned to sniff that out in advance because it’s our daily reality as a successful person running a business. And we can’t afford to waste our time with those people.
Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve run into that.
I’ve run into that. I mean, there’s that version of it where you know, when they’re just chatting with you They don’t realize you’re doing anything or whatever and then they realize it and they change their tone or I mean, I’ve I’ve had I’ve had that but I’ve also had Where people that knew me before I’m doing what was doing what I was doing what I’m doing now that, you know, never [01:01:00] cared to, they never cared to talk to me.
They didn’t care what I was doing. They, I was, I was nothing to them. And now all of a sudden they hear I’ve sold a bunch of books or I have a big website or I have a supplement company, whatever. And all of a sudden they are, you know, they want to hang out. They want me, they want my advice on, on business things they’re doing.
And I mean, like you, I politely blow them off. Like I, I just straight up tell them like, Oh wait, but. Two years ago, you didn’t care, like, don’t, don’t, don’t come talk to me now asking for anything, asking things from me now. You know, because just two years ago, you didn’t even want to speak to me.
So, you know, there’s been some of those awkward moments. I don’t care though, I’ll just straight tell them. Because I think, I think that type of behavior is shitty, and I think they should be called out on it.
Jordan Harbinger: You know what, I agree. I, I, I tend to be a, it sort of depends on who it is. But I try to be as polite as possible.
But it’s, it’s so funny because I’ll be like, Hey, reach out to me in a few months or something like that. And just hope that they’ll forget. Cause most people will, but you’re right. Other times I’ll be like. No, I’m [01:02:00] not going to help you with this. And here’s why. And it feels pretty good, but you got to kind of balance that.
You got to kind of balance your own ego with like real results. Because again, you know, small world, if the, those people become really successful or even if they don’t, they just meet other folks, you don’t want them being like, Oh yeah, Jordan’s a total dick. Right. So it’s, it’s really a double edged sword, but I do, I do think you’re doing them a favor by calling it out.
Cause I think that people go through the beginning stages of a business, not really realizing that. Their relationships with other people matter and that these little nuanced communications can make or break a business. There’s, like I said, there’s tons of startups in Silicon Valley that will never get anywhere because they’re terrible at selling themselves and they’re terrible at the impressions that they make regarding their product.
And so a competitor with maybe an inferior product and a better, a little bit of better Startup game is going to school them.
Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, also this, this first impression thing, you kind of like there’s a, maybe a lesson in there even going back to women. I mean that don’t judge people so quickly.
I mean, [01:03:00] especially, especially you talk about like when you’re slumming it, right? Like I, I wear. Gym clothes. That’s, that’s what I wear. I go to the gym and early in the morning and I work all day. Like why, why would I dress in nice clothes so I can sit with my staff and at my computer all day? Like I just want to be comfortable.
If I, if I could just not even wear pants and if I could just wear underwear all day, I would just do that. But you know, so, you know, if somebody were to see me walking around, I’d be like, who’s that random meathead dude, you know, in his workout clothes every day. And I mean, I always joke that like, There’s the rich guy uniform.
Like if you see you know, an older dude you know, clean cut wearing all Nike gear, you know that guy’s rich. If it’s all Nike workout gear, it’s like a joke, but it’s one of those funny things I’ve just seen so many times. Like yeah, my dad’s neighbor has tons of money, and that’s all he wears, Nike workout gear.
And if you saw him around, you’d think, ah, whatever, the dude’s worth 200 million dollars. Nike gear all the time another friend of mine, he has a big software [01:04:00] company. His, he’s become more and more bumish the more money he makes. We’re now, sometimes his hair’s like, sometimes he looks so ridiculous. His name’s Steve.
I’ll be like, Steve, seriously, you should get haircut. You actually are starting to look homeless. He’s like,
Jordan Harbinger: yeah, yeah, totally. He’s like, whatever, dude, you look like a schizophrenic person. I’m like, please.
Mike Matthews: He’s like, ah, whatever. Long hair. Don’t care. Like what do I, I don’t know how to impress anybody.
Jordan Harbinger: You know what, it’s true, and it’s funny because I, I actually consciously think of this.
I, I, you know, I still suit up when necessary. Sure. I like to present a professional image. Yeah. But there’s just something to be said for going to an event where everybody’s worth like ten million dollars, and I’m like, I’m gonna wear shoes that I’m not gonna tie, jeans with a hole in it, and a t shirt.
And then people look at you and they’re just like, Silicon Valley, huh? And I’m like, yep. And they’re like, you fricking dick, you know, cause they know, but it’s, it’s fun. It’s just feels good to do that. But on the other side of the coin, you got to be conscious of your first impression of it. I, you know, it might be fun for me to [01:05:00] do that sometimes, but realistically, if I’m trying to partner with a media company and I show up like that, what’s, that guy might be old and stodgy or he might be young and stodgy and he might be thinking, if you’re willing to show up like that, it shows me that you don’t really care as much about your impression and that’s what you’re supposed to be teaching guys.
So I don’t buy it. I’m not going to do business with you. And that’s a risk that you run. Sure. So. It’s no matter who you are, it’s
Mike Matthews: a matter of being smart about it. Yeah. Yeah. I just saying like in the day to day life, it’s sometimes I think people will make too quick of judgments and then even, even, you know, it could be going back to that scenario with if the, if the, if you’re, if you come into the club or the place or whatever, and you’re walking around and you’re kind of, you know, you blow off the weight or whatever it might be, you actually might be a great guy.
Maybe the waiter. Did something that was rude and maybe the reader said something to you, but the girl doesn’t see that she just sees how you behaved or, you know, maybe you had a momentary lapse of whatever. So it also, I mean, they can work in that in that way too. [01:06:00]
Jordan Harbinger: You’re right. And so that’s why it pays to maintain your composure at all times and it pays to be able to read.
Between the lines and be able to subcommunicate as well. Yeah. Because if you can’t, you will lose. And when it comes down to it, it’s all about people buying you. They buy you. They don’t buy your product. People do business with people that they like. Yeah. Even if it’s not the best deal for their company.
Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. It’s very true. Alright, well I’m sure we could just go on and on. I mean, it’s there’s plenty of interesting things to talk about. But
Jordan Harbinger: Man, yeah, I’ll tell ya. And it’s, this went in a totally different direction than I thought it was. Because usually we do teach like, Body language, eye contact, non verbal communication, lie detection through body language Every, I mean, just name it, there’s 300 hours of audio on the Art of Charm podcast, so, I would say that if people are looking for anything even remotely tangentially related to what we discussed today, Check out the Art of Charm podcast, you’re already listening to podcasts.
It’s TheArtOfTrumpPodcast. com has them on the web, but iTunes, any podcatcher, any app you’re using will have it too. And it’s [01:07:00] a top 50 iTunes podcast and usually I behave myself probably a little bit more so than I did here today. So I encourage everyone to check it out. It’s all right. This is how I
Mike Matthews: always am.
So if someone’s listening, they’re used to it. Good.
Jordan Harbinger: Good.
Mike Matthews: Yeah. Thanks so much. That’s great. Definitely. I highly recommend Jordan’s stuff. As you see, he’s a great guy. And I like, I like the angle that you take on it, which, which makes it, like you said, it’s an authentic thing and it makes it genuinely applicable to, to life, not just how to run cheesy game on girls in clubs.
Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. It goes so far beyond that. Yeah. I appreciate you saying so.
Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So thanks a lot for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And you know, we’ll have to do it again.
Jordan Harbinger: You got it. Talk soon.
Mike Matthews: Okay.