Ep. #150: How to Win at the Inner Game of Fitness (feat. Noah Kagan…again!)

Mike Matthews: [00:00:00] Hello there. This is Mike and welcome to another episode of the muscle for life podcast. And in this episode, I have another chat with my friend, Noah Kagan on the psychology of getting and staying in shape. Now, in case you didn’t catch the last episode, a little bit about Noah, he was the 30th employee at Facebook and the director of marketing for mint.

com and is now the founder of sumo. com and app sumo. com. Those are his companies. And he also just happens to be an all around neat dude with a lot of interesting stories to tell and interesting ideas about a lot of things. In this show, Noah and I are going to talk about how to deal with some of the common psychological obstacles and difficulties that keep people from getting the body they really want.

And we go all over the [00:01:00] place in this discussion, similar to the last discussion, ranging from Noah’s experiences, purposely gaining and losing 40 pounds, To my thoughts on how to make training more fun and a lot more. Here’s a little sneak peek of what you’re going to find in today’s episode. How people talk themselves out of getting into shape.

How to immediately make your diet and training more enjoyable. An easy way to motivate yourself to do new things. How to use your behaviors to shape your attitudes and not the other way around. and much more. Now, before we dive into this episode, I have to shill for something to pay the bills, right? No, I’m just kidding.

I’m not big on promoting stuff that I don’t personally use and really believe in, so instead I am going to just quickly tell you about something of mine. Specifically, my flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now this book has sold over 200, 000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of men and women get the bodies they really [00:02:00] want eating the types of food that they really love.

Which is why it has over 700 reviews on Amazon with a 4. 5 star rating. average. So if you want to know how to build your best body ever without having to follow a boring bland quote unquote body building diet, and if you want 125 of my personal favorite recipes for building muscle, losing fat, and getting healthy, click here.

Then you want to pick up the shredded chef today, which you can find on all major online retailers like audible. Yes, there are audio book cookbooks. It is a thing Amazon, iTunes, Kobo and Google play. All right, so that’s it for the advertising. Let’s get to the show.

A lot of people, they struggle with. Maybe they don’t enjoy being overweight, but they enjoy what keeps them overweight. You know what I mean? They that the lifestyle is what they really enjoy, whether it’s overeating, drinking too much alcohol, being lazy, not exercising, like that’s what they’re stuck in.

It’s a little bit [00:03:00] different if, you are, have gotten to yourself, gotten yourself to a point where you are very much the opposite of that. You enjoy being overweight. Eating relatively well, you enjoy exercising, you enjoy and then you’re like, I’m gonna force myself to do something I fucking hate and I’m just gonna gain as much weight as quickly as possible so I can get fat as shit and then 

Noah Kagan: get back to what I like.

But think about that for a second though. You ever, you have healthy friends. Look, you’re drinking one of those like big jugs dudes at the gym drinking right now. Yeah. And but it’s not pink. It’s just water. It’s not pink, dude. You’re just, you’re not doing your pre workout post workout BCAs.

But what’s interesting is like when you’re healthy and you’re like, man, being healthy is awesome. And this is such a great life. And then you talk, I was with the Uber driver yesterday and literally the steering wheel couldn’t get past his belly. I was like, really thinking we were going to crash because he was so fat that it was like, rubbing.

And, you don’t, I don’t, I think he would probably want to be healthy. Yeah. And then, you’re like and I’m like, yo, this is, I’m having fun at this party. And, I don’t know, I guess I was just wondering the psychology of that guy about, is it just easier to keep in that self, [00:04:00] self downward spiral, or maybe he doesn’t realize the benefits of how cool it is to actually feel healthy?

Mike Matthews: Yeah, I can speak from I myself have never been Overweight or at least unhealthy enough to feel unhealthy. I mean I grew up playing sports and went from that into weightlifting and always, I never was really even eating into eating junk food and shit. It just wasn’t my thing. So I can’t really say I’ve personally been there, but in working with a lot of people yeah, a lot of it is just not realizing they’re numb to how shitty their life really is.

Let’s make no bones about it. If your body is a pile of shit, your life is pretty shit too. 

Noah Kagan: It’s so funny you say that I just met with this guy He’s like a manager of like very famous music artists and he was telling me how they’re putting on shows They put on these massive shows with super famous people and he said they only put on shows one in one month a year And I was like man, aren’t you isn’t that really a lot of pressure aren’t you nervous?

And he’s like he said this say I’m terrified because one month a year makes [00:05:00] all of his money. And he said, if it rains, I’m screwed. And I was like how have you dealt with it? And he said, there’s actually one thing I did. And I, what do you mean? He’s I just started being healthy.

I was like how the fuck does that make a difference to your concert? And he said I can’t control the concert. The concert’s either there’s going to be rain. There’s not going to be rain. I can do my best to make sure it’s a great show regardless. But I can control my health. And I was like, damn, that’s a pretty cool way of I would have never related that.

And he’s if my health is good, everything else will generally all work out. I was like, yeah, 

Mike Matthews: I like that attitude. Yeah. I think there’s a, there are probably deeper psychological implications there because even to that point of control, right? What can you be in control of and how much, what’s the balance between chaos and order in your life, right?

So if there’s too much chaos, then life becomes overwhelming, unconfrontable. And you probably feel very victimized. Too much order, it becomes stifling. And it, yeah, boring probably to the point of almost tyrannical. So you have to have that. That balance. And [00:06:00] so if obviously work is always a big part of all of our lives and that’s livelihood and it, there are obviously great implications to like what’s going to happen in our work sphere is going to influence everything positively or negatively.

So if there’s inherent, like I actually have, A good example of that is a friend of mine. It’s very similar. He has a business. They fix dents in cars, but they do that. They do it on a big scale. So they work with Volkswagen and BMW and whatever, right? So what will happen is they’re over in Europe, hail will come in and fuck up, 3000 cars.

And then BMW needs to get those cars fixed up so they can sell them. And they need to be fixed up perfectly. So they might pay You know, two or 2, 000 euros per car or whatever to get them fixed. And so if there’s a lot of hail, then. my buddy, he makes a bunch of money. If if there’s not a lot of hail, then he doesn’t make, he doesn’t make, but he still has the infrastructure.

He still has to pay, he still has a payroll and he has overhead that needs to be covered. It’s similar. We’re like, I’ll be talking to him and [00:07:00] he’s just I’m waiting for hail, man. Waiting for hail. Hopefully it comes. But so he has also similarly found that.

The healthy living routine of not just exercise, but it’s like exercise, eating well getting enough sleep, not drinking too much alcohol, not smoking, all that shit has given him more I would say, eh, it just has helped him better deal with the stresses. 

Noah Kagan: Last time we talked, you said something that’s really stuck with me, and that was, and I’ve changed how I’ve worked out and lived because of it, which was there’s a difference between training and working out.

Training is towards something and working out is just to work out. And I think with my mentality, it’s definitely a lot of my workout has been an evolution. Just health has been an evolution. And what I’ve noticed is that my, the thing I keep coming back to is like, what’s my goal? How am I doing things that are sustainable?

Because I think so many people with health are like, Yeah, man, I’m like crazy this week. And then two weeks later, they’re, yes, whatever it is, [00:08:00] back to the routine. And ultimately, for myself, especially late, I’m thinking, how can I make it fun? Like, when you were, when we were all children, it was fun!

You didn’t call it cardio. You just called it playing. And I think the more that we can get back to that type of mentality and just encouraging it from a fun aspect versus, I think it’s almost sometimes like a punishment. Oh, I have to go do this thing. It’s nah bitch, just go make it fun for yourself.

Totally. No, 

Mike Matthews: I agree. I think there’s a lot to be said for enjoyment because of how much it affects compliance. So that’s on the, that’s on. Oh, that’s interesting. That’s on the diet side and on the training and exercise side. People say the best diet is the one you can stick to.

And I think there’s a lot of truth there. Sure. We do need to, there are boundaries in terms of what is going to work just biologically speaking and what’s not, you have to pay attention to certain things, energy balance, macronutrient balance, but you have also a lot of wiggle room. So you know, for some people that might be, let’s say it’s a keto type of diet.

Is that optimal for gaining muscle and strength? No. But some people like it. They like it more [00:09:00] than having a higher carb diet, which is better for gaining muscle and strength. I’ve had this discussion with people that will email me and they’ll almost feel guilty, like because there’s some, they know something is not optimal from the perspective of body composition, but they like it and I’ll explain no, you should reframe that where if that’s what you like, then it’s not that you can’t get a great body on it.

Eating a keto diet. Sure. Sure. If somebody were to say. They only want to eat 10 grams of protein a day, then I’d have to say you got to choose then one or the other. You’re not going to really gain much muscle or you’re not going to go very far on 10 grams protein a day. But if, if they are willing to pay attention to their calories, make sure they get enough protein.

Okay. So yeah, not eating a lot of carbs, not the best for gaining muscle, but if you enjoy it. then this is something you can stick to for a long period of time. That’s going to be better. And it’s also just gonna be better for you psychologically than forcing, like you’re saying, forcing yourself to do something every day that you don’t look forward to.

So the same thing applies to exercise. Take weightlifting. Some people, they don’t, they just don’t enjoy it. They don’t [00:10:00] enjoy going into the gym and lifting weights. And that’s totally fine. There are other options. You could have a simple gym, you could have a simple gym at home. If it’s more of the gym environment that you don’t like, or if it’s really weightlifting, you don’t like, Maybe you want to do some calisthenics.

Maybe it’s body weight stuff. Or maybe it’s a twist on weightlifting. Maybe it’s like a CrossFit where you like the group environment and that’s more fun. Or if you’re not so concerned with like muscle or whatever, Getting into spinning or getting into just again, finding something that you enjoy, that you are looking forward to.

And of course, that’s not always gonna be the case. Some days, for whatever reason, we don’t really want to do anything that we know we should do or that. We, that we normally enjoy doing and that’s when you have to obviously apply a little bit of just self discipline and just do it. And then it’s one of those things I’ve found that sometimes I don’t enjoy working out.

I don’t it’s just not a good workout. Maybe I didn’t sleep enough, just not into it, but I always enjoy having worked out so that’ll, I just remember that. You [00:11:00] know what I mean? Like when I’m done. Then I’m, then I feel good physically, like I’m glad I did it. And so sometimes that’s just what it takes when I’m, hey I would rather not go to the gym this morning, but I know when I’m done, I’m gonna feel good about it, so I’m gonna go do it.

Noah Kagan: Yeah. I, as I was telling you earlier, I really like trying to do workout meetings. So either a jog or a friend was like, Hey, you want to hang out? Let’s have coffee. I’m like, dude, let’s just go for a walk. Or do you have a bicycle? I’ve even done it where not a spin class, but like I have the stationary bikes in my gym and I was like, Hey, let’s just talk there.

Yeah. And you get this two for one experience. Yeah, which just makes it 

Mike Matthews: more, it makes it more enjoyable for you, right? 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, and I think there’s a balance because I was, one of the things, and you say this and your messages are great and I love the way you explain everything on your site, but one of the things I think people have to remember is that whenever I, whenever you talk to someone or whenever I’ve talked to someone recently, that was like a few days ago, and I was talking to him and he’s man, yeah, I need to get, I’m gaining a little bit of weight.

I got to get back to the gym. And I was like, dude, you don’t have to be at the gym. It’s because you fucking eat like shit. [00:12:00] But that it’s so easy. I think we’re trained because we’re like I gotta be the gym It’s like the gym is the hard part the easy part is just don’t put that shit in your mouth like hey Don’t and that’s the hard thing is you have to decide do I want this reward later?

Or do I want just the pleasure instantly now totally and even for myself? I’m trying to figure that out like I change having like lately I’m not having breakfast And I have noticed though, and I think you just have to be self aware of what’s working you, helping you get to your goal. So lately I’m not doing breakfast and I’m noticing though at night I’m like overcompensating with food.

Yeah. Cause I’m not doing breakfast or lunch. I’m like, Oh yeah, I didn’t have breakfast. I can double on this and dinner. I’m like, yeah, put that guac on it. 

Mike Matthews: There’s, I mean there’s research on that this isn’t something to take as dogma, but I would just say that. What you can take from the research is some people do better with breakfast.

Basically, like some people are their overall caloric intake tends to be lower if they eat a breakfast. So you might be one of those types of people. And it’s not a, it’s not a judgment of right or wrong or good or bad. It’s just, that’s it. It’s just some people find that [00:13:00] they do exactly that.

If they’re, if they skip breakfast, they’re more likely to just eat more or even just be hungry. Even if you’re going to, you’re going to really like, Put the screws to yourself. It’s still annoying if it ramps up your hunger later in the day 

Noah Kagan: no, and I think that’s a really good point where it’s just like It’s figuring out what works for you because some people it’s hey I can work eat like shit Oh, weekends, but the weekdays are my great.

I’ll be very strict Yeah, or you know because for me I even notice it with alcohol is probably my biggest weakness in terms of diet and I’ve experimented with it. So sometimes I’m like, all right, don’t drink during the week, but then my weekends are ballistic. I’m like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, there’s not binge drinking, but it’s I want more.

Yeah. And so then I’m like during, let me try drinking during the week. So maybe during the week I have a glass of wine at night or every other night. And it, honestly, parts of it is also just like times of the year or times of my life. Sure. And so I think part of it is also not being so fucking hard on ourselves.

Hey, it’s okay. You’re good. Sometimes I think when we’re healthy and you get this six pack or you get this great body. And sometimes I look around for an award. I’m [00:14:00] like, Hey, I got this really nice body. Who’s here to look at it. 

Mike Matthews: That’s why your standard like meathead bros, where the fucking shirts that are five sizes too small.

And the, the tight joggers and stuff to try. So look at me, look at my biceps, look at my chest. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. And I do it too. Cause I, 

Mike Matthews: I don’t have that. Hey, we, I like to get attention to some degree. We all do that. That’s human nature. It’s just, some people are more into it than others.

Noah Kagan: I think part of that is just ultimately enjoying it yourself, like doing the exercises, finding the routine. Like for me, my routine is really right now it is told, dude, it’s a hundred percent different than it when it was five years ago, but it’s try to bike as much as possible. So I aim for certain 40 miles a week and then just get to the gym three times a week and on it at this point now, man, I don’t know, you’re obviously a different level of discipline and like it’s your profession.

For me, I just want to, I want to look good. 

Mike Matthews: Yep. 

Noah Kagan: And so if I just want to feel 

Mike Matthews: good, 

Noah Kagan: you 

Mike Matthews: wanna have that energy and Yeah. It’s so good. Yeah. 

Noah Kagan: You know what’s funny is two years ago, so yeah, I just wanna be in the gym three times a week. And at the gym I have different sections I try to do, one is a circuit, one is legs, one is chest.

[00:15:00] But more or less, as long as I get there, I’m happy. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. 

Noah Kagan: But what, what was fascinating is three years ago I did this challenge where I was one 60, I think I told you this, I tried to get to 200 . And then I wanted to cut back down to one 60 with abs. Yeah. And I’ll tell you, man if anyone’s Oh, what’s it like to be fat, gain 40 pounds, which is what I did in three months.

And it honestly was miserable. Like my girl, my girlfriend would have sex at the time and it’d be like rubbing up all my rolls. It’d be like, she’d be like, she’d be like surfing to find my penis. And which is not, it’s not it doesn’t feel good for anybody. And you’re also, you are more tired.

And like getting out of bed, I’m like trying to roll all this fucking weight out. And it was an experience. And then I cut back down really hardcore. And, sometimes you have to experience what it’s like on the other side, do a 180. Yeah. And you’re like, actually this, it doesn’t feel that fucking great.

Mike Matthews: Yeah. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, 

Mike Matthews: The furthest I’ve pushed that is so I weigh 192 or 193. My weight has always been strangely low. Hunt, you weigh, how tall are you? Six, one and a half, six two. You’re one. I don’t know. I guess I would have thought you’ve been lighter to be [00:16:00] honest people gets me heavier Like cuz I’m pretty lean.

I’m not I’m as lean as I can Comfortably maintain, not having drugs that would allow me to maintain a much lower level of body fat Maybe I’m around 8 percent 9 percent or so But you know now just given I don’t know given my size like there’s a guy that works with me who I’m a bit bigger You took measurements, I’d have him, he has, no, I would, he’d be even my legs, like I train legs, my legs are not small.

I think they’re a pretty important upper body. And he’s two Oh five and I’m a bit bigger than him. So my, like when I was at universal studios in Florida, there was person at one of the like booths, it wasn’t one of those weight guessing booths, but she used to run the weight. She used to run the weight guests, weight guessing booth.

And at that time I was like one 83 I was a bit smaller and I was very lean. Cause I just recently cut for a photo shoot. And so I was Joe, like my weight is always, people always guess me about 10 or 15 pounds heavier than I am. So when it went to the, with the weight guessing, where if she guesses you, you’re If she was off by [00:17:00] whatever, like five or ten pounds, you win some prize or something.

And she guessed me at, I was like 183 and she guessed like 198. So even the profession, even the professionals can’t get me, but but so I got up to, I got up to 205 and where like I would feel my stomach fat with the seatbelt and shit. So I have experienced, I have a little bit of personal experience with that where I know how it is where you start getting uncomfortable.

You’re just like I’m just too big. It’s fucking annoying to move. And So I could imagine if I were to get up to, for me, it’d probably be like, if I got up to 215 and just put on a bunch of fat, I would be very uncomfortable. Yeah, it’s interesting with health. How did you get into, because if I remember correctly, your real entrance into this world of just, being healthy.

Trying to exercise more regularly, take care of your body. It came after a breakup. I remember that correctly or no? 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, man. It’s been a bit since we chatted, but it started about five and a half years ago I was on a bike ride. It’s called the worst ride and you ride 30 miles to this beer festival and you just get drunk and eat sausages and The night before I [00:18:00] was partying and playing beer pong, whatever the fuck and went out with a girl My girlfriend and I did it the next morning and I’ve done this ride two years before without a problem and we’re on the ride and there was like 20 mile an hour headwinds and I and also I was out of shape and during the ride she’s like you’re lazy, you’re disgusting, I can’t believe you like you went out last night.

And she just wouldn’t stop with it. And I almost 

Mike Matthews: Was this a recurring, was this like a motif of the relationship? It just just came out of nowhere. 

Noah Kagan: No, we were on the rocks. I would say, I don’t think that was the final thing, but during the ride, I tried to quit the sag wagon to pick us up, took too long.

So I was like, screw it. I’m just going to go for it. And at like halfway through, I was like, all right, we’ve just got to break up. This is I don’t, I can’t deal with this. And so at the, long story short, the next day though, so we break up and the next day I wake up and I was like, you know what?

She was right. I was like, she was actually, I’m out of shape. I’m not and if you look at the photos, you’re like, wow. So I think it, there’s a lot of things I’ve learned that are very helpful, but one of them was like, take photos of yourself. [00:19:00] Because it’s really nice to see the progress. I think progress is one of the sweetest things in life.

Totally. Progress is happiness. And so you want to see your progress. And so take some photos of yourself, use the scale every few weeks if that is your progress measurement. Yeah. But yeah, I started, I think the thing that I’m happy with that is I worked with my friend Adam from MyBodyTutor. com, one of my best friends, and we just started really simple.

I think that’s probably part of it, Mike, and you’ve taught a lot of people and helped a lot of people. is that they like do everything all at once, right? 

Mike Matthews: And that works for some people. I found that it can go either way. Some people actually seem to do better that way because like half measures make them or what they feel is a hash half measure makes them more likely to just revert back to their previous ways.

Yeah, it’s been interesting to see where there are many people that respond better to what you’re talking about and it seems what worked better for you. And then some people that doesn’t work very well for. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, to each their own and it’s, I’m not trying to say my way is the best.

[00:20:00] I’m only saying what I experienced. So I just started really simply. I literally only just started focusing on food and it was like cutting out certain 

Mike Matthews: Drinking less, 

Noah Kagan: having less sugar or something. Exactly. It was literally like, all right, let’s have a good breakfast, egg white, like egg whites and blueberries or egg whites and some vegetables or egg whites and some protein.

And it was, I started with that and then it was like, then we slowly were like, all right, what do you want to do for lunch and dinner? And then, what are you trying to do for the weekend? And I think one of the things that Adam was really good about with me, he said he, he held me accountable. So he would check in with me all fucking time, like a Jewish mother.

Super annoying. And, the other thing that helped me was Planning what I was gonna eat ahead of it. Yes. I dunno if you’ve, have you heard the book mindless Eating? Yep. Brian, that is one of, Brian 

Mike Matthews: was a, something was an Easy Hacker. 

Noah Kagan: I love that book because there’s so many damn diet books out there.

It’s, oh, if you go to Amazon right now, one of the top hundred books will be some Health another, there’s another health one like The Next Fucking Cure. 

Mike Matthews: Every quarter, the marketing blitz for the next 

Noah Kagan: thing. Yeah. 

Mike Matthews: They’re trying to, they’re looking for the next paleo. And that’s really what [00:21:00] they’re trying to, what’s going to be the next meteoric success that can, become an intellectual property and spin off all kinds of other 

Noah Kagan: fully.

And they’re looking for the next. Out. They’re looking for the next hack. And in reality, it’s not a hack. 

Mike Matthews: From a marketing perspective, that’s what the publishers are hoping. What’s going to be the next thing? What’s going to be the next South Beach? What’s going to be the next Atkins? 

Noah Kagan: When in reality, it’s very simple.

But we don’t want to listen to that. And yeah, for myself, it was start simple. Have accountability. Start planning my meals. Not meal prep, like hardcore stuff. But it’s hey, you’re going to, so if I was going out at night, I said, how many drinks am I going to have? Yeah. And committing to it.

Yeah. And say, I’m going to have two jobs. Yeah. There’s research 

Mike Matthews: that shows that alone makes you more likely to stick. Like that, that works with yourself and works with others. So it works in the other way around too. So if you want let’s say you have an employee and you want to make sure that something gets done, just getting a verbal commitment from them that it’s going to get done greatly increases the chances that it’s going to get done.

So you can use that with yourself too. If you are. Internally committing to yourself, thinking about it like that saying, I’m going to, okay, how many drinks am I to have? I’m going to have [00:22:00] X number. You are more likely to stick to that than and let’s say it’s, let’s say it’s four drinks or whatever.

So you’re more likely to have, like if you were to play that out over time, your average alcohol intake would be lower in under those conditions than if you were just to go and, wing it. 

Noah Kagan: No. And I think that’s very much the case with a lot of people. Oh yeah, I’ll just figure this out.

And I think that’s actually a great point you just made Mike where. If you wanted to get to, so I always use maps because it’s a very easy analogy, but if you wanted to go somewhere, let’s say you want to go to Disneyland with your new kid, you’re not going to just start driving and hope, you’re like I know it’s in Florida, Disney World, let me just go south and I’ll hopefully fucking get there.

And someone else should have put some signs, 

Mike Matthews: like they’ve figured it out for me. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, there’s these roads, like I already, if I just go to the gym, if I just probably eat the stuff. So I think there’s this balance where you need to have somewhat of a plan. You need to have a destination, your goal.

You need to have somewhat of a plan. And I think my friend said it very well. My friend Taylor you wrote a book called End of Jobs, which I recommend. And what he said was like, you got to basically plan with goals, but you’ve got to build with [00:23:00] habits. Because a lot of times what I’ve noticed is I hit this goal.

I talked to someone recently who said the same thing with their health. They’re like, man, I wanted to get to 190. I got to 190. And now I’m back at 200. And I was like, oh what happened there? It’s because they planned, they got their goal, and it was over. Yep. And so I definitely think there’s some consideration that people have to be like, alright, I’m going to plan it, and I’m going to have a goal, but it’s also just as important that every for me, I don’t really, as much now, have a hardcore goal, but I’ve built these habits where three days a week I’m in the gym, three to five days a week I’m biking, and then my goal right now is to maintain at least the physique that I have.

Yeah, but it’s evolved over time. So yeah. So I started just that’s, it’s 

Mike Matthews: a goal. It’s an amorphous goal, but it’s still a goal. It’s and I’m in the same place where I’m not working toward a very specific quantifiable goal in term if we’re talking about just in, in training because I’m pretty happy with where my body’s at right now.

And as long as I am slightly improving over time, then that’s my goal. And so those are very slight improvements, though. I’m not gonna, I don’t have it in me [00:24:00] genetically. To gain all that much more muscle, even if I tried to do everything I could naturally, maybe if I were to work really hard at it, maybe five to maybe 10 pounds, but it’d probably take four years, three or four years of it mainly would be, I’d have to change a bit in my training and also change a bit in my diet.

But similarly I’m happy with my body, I don’t have any injuries and that matters to me as well. I enjoy the workouts that I’m doing and if I can improve certain areas of my body, slowly over time, that’s the game. Yeah. For me, I don’t know how it is for you.

I think there’s a deeper, for me, it’s also about, I have a, I guess you could say living up to, it’s more about being the type of person that I want to be and living up to my standards, so to speak. And so I want to be the type of person that has the self discipline to exercise regularly and that cares enough about their health and their longterm health.

To put in the time [00:25:00] and the effort to to get there even when it’s uncomfortable or when it’s difficult. And I like that mindset. That’s whatever. I’ve just I’ve maybe just picked it up from that’s big in the seven habits of effective, highly effective people.

The Covey book, like that’s a big thing, big takeaway that I personally I really liked from that book is living by principles. And even Elon Musk has spoken about that, like living life by first principles as opposed to living by analogy where you just living by analogy is just looking around.

What is everybody else doing? I guess I’ll just do that as opposed to really thinking about what are your values and the, and what really matters to you. And how do you not, how do you live your life in accordance with that? And that might be very different than what everybody else is doing.

And. Maybe not, but the point is you have to 

Noah Kagan: really figure it out for yourself. Yeah, you have to decide what you really want, and then what happens is things change. One of my things I’ve thought about is, I think now when we change our minds or we have new goals, and you obviously don’t want to change them every single day, but we have a lot of guilt or [00:26:00] Oh, I can’t change my mind.

I’m like, Bitch, I don’t wear the same clothes from elementary school. Yeah. Like things change. Hey, 

Mike Matthews: quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth.

So if you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as well, Please do tell them about it. It really helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say, thank you. You can find me on Instagram at muscle for life fitness, Twitter at muscle for life and Facebook at muscle for life fitness.

Noah Kagan: My evolution with all the health is like first year was really just food. Second year was just like a cardio where I looked like an anorexic girl or anorexic guy, where I was just like skin and bones. I was running all the time because I committed to running three days a week. And I [00:27:00] like for me, I don’t think I’m a simple man.

Maybe you can ask my girlfriend if that’s true, but I like simple rules. So I run three days a week and it’s just so damn simple to follow. I like it. And so I was running three days a week. And then yeah. I got super skinny and my friend was like, you should try working out. You don’t actually have to run as much and you’ll lose weight and you get bigger arms.

So you look aesthetically better. And I go to the gym, man, and I don’t know about you, but I definitely have a few friends that work out this way. I worked out by numbers. It was like, all right, do five of these. And I was like, one, two, three, four, five. Oh, this sucks. Hopefully not. All right, good. It’s over.

Yeah. And so I did that for the next year. And what was crazy is I did it because I committed to doing it for a year. Yeah. And at the end of the year, I had this like little baby apple, like a crab apple in my arm. And I was like, I can’t believe this is shit. This shit’s working. Like the stuff that I read on your blog and just go in.

And that’s when I stopped working out by numbers. And it’s not to say I don’t do reps and counts, but what most people do is they’re like I’m going to go do three sets and eight counts. And I was like, at eight, I’d still have energy [00:28:00] left. And it’s dude, we’ll do more. And I’m like, Oh, I could do more.

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. It’s give 

Noah Kagan: yourself. That, 

Mike Matthews: and that’s ultimately any sort of progression scheme, the purpose is to just make you work harder over time. So it’s just with when you’re following a progression scheme, if it’s well designed, that’s all it actually is accomplishing is it’s just making sure that you are pushing yourself to, to work harder over time and then backing off, right?

So it’s like you have that, it’s an undulating pattern that is on an upward trajectory. And so that’s also one of the reasons why, for speaking about weightlifting as an intermediate and advanced weightlifter, it gets harder and harder to build muscle. There are just basic. genetic physiological limits, but also you have to work your fucking ass off.

Like you have to work a lot harder. If you’ve been in, if you’ve put in five years of good, high quality work in the gym, weightlifting you have to work a lot harder to gain a lot less muscle than you did in your first year. And and that’s just That’s just reality. So 

Noah Kagan: you know what’s funny about that though, man?

Like when I’m, I [00:29:00] was traveling, I was in Israel and then I was traveling to France and for a week in France, I didn’t work out and I had guilt. But what’s interesting is that your body is like a bank account where if you build balance of you’ve worked out for the past five years, which I have, then your body’s dude, it’s okay.

Like I’m not, I’m going to go away a little bit slower, but I still got you. And then you can just get right back the next week. Totally. And But I think 

Mike Matthews: that’s the I think that’s a good analogy for really anything in life. So if you get your relationship with your girlfriend, if you’re in a place where it’s really good, it’s in a really good state, really good condition, it’s in good order, not too much chaos, right?

Then and if you have a bad week, then it’s not like it brings the whole, I don’t house of cards down, or even if you had a week where, let’s say you didn’t speak for a week because you were out of town or share, whatever it is. And, but if you put yourself into a much into if now, if you’re in a relationship, that’s a lot worse it’s already in a bad state that might be, you might go for a bike ride and that might be the end of it.

You know what I mean? 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. I [00:30:00] don’t, sometimes I think it’s it’s okay to have a drink. It’s okay to have a cookie. I think about that a lot where. If I didn’t have this piece of pizza and I get hit by a car outside, how would I really feel? Cause sometimes it’s totally worth it. And other times it’s no, dude, it’s there’s, you’re probably gonna have another cookie later today or next week and make it more of a reward than just something that becomes a commonality.

Yeah. And yeah. So finishing the evolution where I’m at this year is that I had a moment last year where I was in the gym and I looked around and I was And I felt like I was in a prison jail yard with all these like big bald dudes grunting in tank tops and sweaty. And I’m like, and I’m like, and I’m spending four days a week, five days a week in the gym.

I’m like, what the fuck am I doing with my time? What am I doing with my life? I don’t want to look back and have a great body. And all that stuff, if I’m not really I don’t really want that. I want a nice, I want a nice physique, but I also want to balance that with being the hell outside.

Yep. And so this year has been where I’m doing now. Next year, if we talk, when we talk again, it’ll probably be different. Yeah. But this year it’s been more, how do I do like high [00:31:00] intensity, shorter workouts? People do an hour and a half workout and I don’t, there’s nothing wrong with it.

There’s times that was actually great, but for me, I actually prefer to work alone now. I want to go in, I’m going to do sick, two sets of three rounds. So a circuit. For three things really fast, that’s three times. Then I’ll do two of that. So six total exercises generally around a certain physique, a certain body parts.

And that works for me right now. And I’m liking it because it’s 30 minutes or less. And the rest of the week, I just hit the bike because it’s fun for me. Yeah. And I think one thing that I can recommend for other people and I like this is how do you make stupid habits? So what a stupid habit is that when I bike or like at night, you can ask my girlfriend who’s sitting nearby every night.

What do I do? Before I go to sleep, I do pushups every night before I go to sleep. If I’m drunk, I do pushups. If I’m sober, I’m having pushups. If I’m traveling, I do pushups and I don’t do a lot. I just do 30. Sometimes 25, sometimes 35. Depends. I have weird superstitions. But the point being is make stupid ones where you get these I call them free calories or [00:32:00] freebies.

If there’s another one, this is a stupid, these are actually, I never thought about this. When I do, if I’m ever at the airport or traveling and there’s stairs or an escalator. Yeah, I do the same thing. I fucking never do the escalator. Same. I race against people. It did suck, though. We were traveling, as I said, in France.

Unless I have, like 

Mike Matthews: Too much fuckin luggage, then I have no choice. 

Noah Kagan: No, you still gotta do the stairs. So we were traveling in France. Alright. I’m trying to be a gentleman, carrying my lady’s bag, and my bag. And then the stairs, it was just these stairs. I was like, oh man, this is going to heaven. And you take the fuckin stairs.

And so shit like that, the stupid ones, it adds up. If I do 30 pushups a night, that’s 10, 000. 10, 000 away. Is that really that many? 10, 000 at the end of the year, wow. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. I didn’t realize there’s that many and I don’t have to think they’re free. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, 

Noah Kagan: so create 

Mike Matthews: more free workouts in your life Yeah, and I think there’s something to be said for How I think stuff like that can actually hat can change you in or can have more profound effects on you psychologically and [00:33:00] emotionally than you might realize because many people I think most people think that like You first they struggle with chain, trying to change their attitudes and their beliefs and their ideas.

And they’re, they think that if they could just change their mind, if they can just get into the right state of mind, then the behaviors would naturally follow. And even from a marketing perspective, I think it’s much smarter to try to change people’s. behaviors than it is to change their minds.

It’s very hard to get people to change their minds. It’s much easier to get people to change how they behave. So if we’re talking marketing, especially merchandising, right? You can play with price. You can play with product placement. You can play with packaging. You can do things that, would make someone who’s a die.

They from a psychological perspective, let’s say they will buy Cheerios. They just, they’ve been doing it for a long time. It’s ingrained. As far as breakfast cereals go, Cheerios at the top of that ladder. I think it’s much easier to get somebody through changing circumstances. Like what I just mentioned to get them to try something else than it is to try [00:34:00] to market to them and change their mind about Cheerios to, get them to try to change Apple Jacks.

It’d be easier to if if the grocery store to put Apple Jacks, maybe on the at the beginning of the aisle, or if they were to run a promotion on Apple Jacks, that’s a much easier way to get someone to try your Apple Jacks than it is to, try to come up with a super clever campaign to, to change their minds.

And so I think that also applies though, to, to just any area of our lives. So just the fact of changing a behavior like that, adding something simple, I’m just gonna do pushups every night. That I just because of the simple principles of cognitive dissonance, right? When our behaviors don’t match our, our beliefs, we’re much more likely to just change, conf, get our, conform our beliefs to our behaviors than we are to change our behaviors.

By just doing pushups every night, you be, you start to become it’s going to influence you psychologically to some degree. You might not even realize it, but that is going to make you, I think, more likely to do other similar types of behaviors. And by adding more and more, and by changing more and more actions, Over time, you [00:35:00] become a completely different person without even thinking so much about, how you feel about any of it.

And I think that’s also why there’s, there is value in, like you were saying with habits, where by keeping your habits in place, I think that’s a much more, and just doing the actions that the type of person that, you want to be does is a much more effective way to keep your your mind in the right place than it is to, let’s say you let the actions fall out and then you’re trying to wrestle with feelings of guilt or you’re trying to wrestle with your attitudes is much harder to do.

Yeah, 

Noah Kagan: Exactly man. I don’t know if I explained that 

Mike Matthews: well, but basically, 

Noah Kagan: What I’m trying, what I’m 

Mike Matthews: trying to say is it’s easier if you can just get change actions if you can just Even if it’s little, start small and get yourself doing things, regardless of how you feel about it. Don’t really think about really anything, just start doing things and slowly if whatever, it can be some people again, [00:36:00] or maybe you can take on more, but the more you change your behaviors, the more your mind and or the mental side, it.

Naturally changes to agree basically on. So what’s the 

Noah Kagan: psychology that you’re, 

Mike Matthews: that you 

Noah Kagan: understand around it? Just 

Mike Matthews: That’s the, that’s it. I had read about it. Where did I read about this? It was, it might’ve been a book called peak performance. I believe it was. No. It was the seven.

It’s called the seven secrets of persuasion. That’s what it’s called. And it, the first half of the book was meh, but the second half was actually quite good. And it was the, I forget the author’s name, but he was talking about this and just talking about the relevant psychological research.

And again, it’s something that stuck with me because I think that’s very true again, that it’s, it, if you can get someone. to just change start changing their behaviors like okay so you know go back to in the beginning of your journey where you weren’t eating well and drinking too much not exercising where do you start with sitting you down on a couch and you know trying to dive into Psychotherapy [00:37:00] and trying to sort out really, sort out internally.

Why do you do these things? What are you struggling with? Or do you have some sort of, Is it a repression of some kind? We need to go back to your childhood. Is it Is it freudian in nature? Is it jungian in nature? Who the fuck knows, right? So you can do that. Or you can just go, all right, let’s just start eating a good breakfast.

Let’s just start there. Let’s change a behavior that, that represents something as well. So it’s a behavior in a certain direction that also has a. It has a symbolic meaning of sorts because, and it indicates to you, right? That like you are, you’re now starting to change, you’ve shifted the rudder at least a little bit.

And then okay, you’ve done that. And the question is, do you really need to at any point? all that much attention to the internal resistance that you are running into. Like how much do you really need to try to analyze that deconstruct it, overcome it versus going in the other direction, which is just change more behaviors.

All right. So we have the breakfast behavior pretty well [00:38:00] established. That’s going well. Yes. Now let’s out, let’s add the lunch behavior. All right. Let’s change that behavior. Okay. And then what now then dinner. And then, so eventually, six months of really just behavior therapy in a sense you’ll find that I think that just will do a lot more and that will sort out a lot more.

of the psychological stuff, it’ll sort it out a lot more effectively than you. I think you could sit trying to address the psychological without changing behaviors, probably indefinitely or waiting for the inspiration, or waiting for just like having to where you don’t feel like you need to eat that junk food anymore.

You don’t feel we’re feeling like you really want to get into working out. And again I’ve spoken to a lot of people that get lost in that type of thing where I just think that they are again, waiting for too much of a, some sort of revelatory, experience.

As opposed to just, let’s just start changing something. Let’s just start with breakfast. Good example. You know what I mean? And who cares about how you feel? Who [00:39:00] cares? I know. Like you, you have all, we’re all fucked up. We all have neuroses and varying degrees of mental illness. That’s fine. But let’s just start doing this over here.

You know what I mean? 

Noah Kagan: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. It is interesting because you see someone who’s at your level of it where Your level of discipline and follow through around all the health things is just on another level And you have to, for me, I have to remind myself sometimes that started somewhere though.

You started, many years ago doing that, building up these routines, building up these habits. And I think what’s really great about what you’re saying, and I totally, I’m buying it, I buy into it, is that, make it just part of your life. The easier that you’re just like, Hey, this is part of my life.

I know I like, and you know that it generally makes your life better. So that’s why it makes it easy for you to continue that. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, I don’t know if this is something, I guess it’s probably a a trait that is at least strengthened by sticking to some sort of fitness routine is being able to commit to something, even [00:40:00] if it’s something small and knowing that you’re either going to, the only way that it doesn’t happen is you’re fucking dead.

Like basically I’m going to do that or I’m going to or I’m dead. That’s the only way that doesn’t happen. And being able to get into that mindset where there’s no thought as to you’re not leaving yourself any outs, there are no maybes in, in, in your decisions for you personally again, unless if the sun blows up, then I won’t be in the gym tomorrow.

Yeah, that’s true. But Saturday I don’t go to the gym, but you know what I’m saying, 

Noah Kagan: it’s the Sabbath bro. Of course you don’t go to the gym. So one thing I would say that you got me reflecting on Mike is that like during this journey, one thing that’s been helpful for me is I’ve been around other people who are doing it Sure, and it makes so much easier like drugs for instance.

I don’t do drugs, but if I’m around people do drugs I’m like, you know what? I like drugs. And so it’s the same thing with how it’s a really bad analogy How my mom never listens to this But the same thing is with health like one of my best friends Jr. We it’s that was like our hangout time It still is it’s like yo, [00:41:00] you want a gym Monday?

Yep. Let’s do it Hey, you want to go get a healthy chicken and chicken asparagus dinner? Yeah. Yeah, I want to have sticky pee and so That made it the whole in my buddy Adam as I mentioned earlier like that kind of support group, and I created a Facebook group even called Healthy Sexy Motherfuckers, and it’s literally, it’s only 30 of us, and it’s not paid, it’s not a membership, it’s nothing.

It’s just, we just post our workouts either selfies, like I, and this morning, so I told you I did that spin class meeting, and it’s just a stupid thing, but like having groups of people around can you see my photo? 

Yeah. You take the selfie. Yeah. So anyways, like having the people around me also on that positive health kick made it way easier to go for it.

Absolutely. That’s 

Mike Matthews: My fitness pal found that I read a book called the transformational consumer and it was written by a lady who was, I don’t think she was there like director of marketing, but she worked in their marketing. She may have been actually anyways. She shared some stats in there that like, People that connected with others using the social features in my fitness pal were far more, I don’t remember the exact numbers, but [00:42:00] we’re far more successful in their weight loss attempts.

And as well as I think it was people that were sharing their results with with, they had friends that they were sharing 

Noah Kagan: their results with. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. I like that. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. I really liked that. That’s great. Yep. It validates what I’m already thinking. I’m like, yeah, 

Mike Matthews: No, it makes sense.

Of course. It’s also whatever, that’s one of those cliches, right? You’re the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. And and I think there’s definitely truth in that. And that extends, I think to probably all areas of life. It probably affects your views on pretty much everything.

And then also your Behaviors. And I, and again, going back to what I was saying earlier, if you get into the wrong types of behaviors, the cognitive dissonance in that war of you have certain ideas or beliefs about something, you start behaving differently. You’re going to change your, you’re going to change your ideas and beliefs.

Most people, it takes, cause it takes that, I guess it takes some self discipline and some willpower and some emotional effort. to [00:43:00] get away from the behaviors, especially if you like the behaviors. Have you, if to be able to pause and reflect and be like wait a minute, do I really want to do this?

Do I really want to go down this road? Do I really want to start behaving this way? Take drugs, be a very good example. You start getting into drugs and if you don’t pull out, probably relatively quickly you could find yourself in a very dark place a year later and you could find yourself having become someone that you would have never thought that you could become, 

Noah Kagan: yeah. I think it’s who you surround yourself with. And even my fitness pal I did it every day for almost four years, every single day, dude. Like it’s weird. Every single thing some days not, let’s say 95 percent accuracy and I’ll tell you, man, one, that’s weird on like when you’re going out with your girl and she’s what are you doing?

I’m like, you’re texting someone. I’m like, no, I’m tracking what I ate. And what’s been weird, I will say is two weeks ago, I gave it up after four years, which is weird. But I think the point is like at some point, like I’ve gotten everything I’m going to get out of it, it’s super helped me accomplish my goals because I tracked it, I understood what I was doing, what [00:44:00] I, what’s different calories and all that stuff, and now I’m like, I’m through it, I’m past it.

But you probably also 

Mike Matthews: now have a good sense of the foods that you like to eat, and you have a good sense also of the volume of food that you can eat and still You know, keep things where you want them to be like, I don’t weigh and track everything. I just eat the same foods and I change things when I want to change things.

I’ll get on a kick of whatever for a bit. Let’s say it’s for dinners and I’ll do that. And then when I want to change it, I’ll change it. But I don’t need to weigh or track simply because one, I don’t, I pretty much most all of my calories come from relatively unprocessed nutritious foods, the type of stuff, it’s not hyper caloric, it’s not hyper palatable.

It’s quote unquote clean food. That is, makes it harder to overeat inherently, again, you spend enough time tracking and then you get a sense of almost, it becomes almost, intuitive in terms of intake where, okay, I went a bit too high for, a few days I’m going to cut it back for a few days and you can just juggle it.

Noah Kagan: Dude, I think [00:45:00] that’s money, man. Yeah you start learning and now it is a little weird. I’m like, I know exactly how many calories is in that thing. Yeah. Yeah. But whether you think about it or not, and I think that’s the point you evolve. You live, you learn, you keep making, the idea is just like bad things are gonna happen.

Good things are gonna happen, but try to learn and keep improving around all of that. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. And again, like I was saying earlier, it’s also understand the underlying principles that are in play, understand what’s negotiable, what’s not. And most things are negotiable. That’s the great thing about diet and exercise.

There are some fundamental principles that if you, there are the laws and you can’t break the laws, you can only break yourself against the laws, right? So like energy balance is a law you will never get around. Macronutrient. the interactions of, protein, carbs, and fat in the body. Those just are what they are.

You can play with them, but depending on what you want to do, you’re going to have, like if you want to gain or maintain a decent amount of muscle mass, you’re going to have to eat a fair amount of protein. You don’t have to stuff yourself full of protein powder every day, but you’re gonna have to eat more protein than the average person you will.

And on an [00:46:00] exercise on the exercise side of things, again, it depends if you want to. Gain muscle and strength. You’re going to have to train your muscles with some sort of resistance training, and you’re going to have to progressively overload them. You have to make it harder over time.

There are different ways of doing that, but those are the principles. So again, it’s deciding why are you getting into this? What are your goals? What are the laws that are in play here and how do I now take those and turn that into something that, turn it into a diet that I enjoy.

And I would say maybe like what you’re saying, turn it into a lifestyle that you enjoy. 

Noah Kagan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just make it. I think it’s hard to like my girlfriend works out and I was like, how did, why’d you start working out? She’s I just started after college and it was fun for me. And I think, it’s interesting as we were saying earlier, and maybe it’s a good way to finish it.

It’s once you start seeing some of the progress, it is fucking addicting. Yeah. Besides the health and the energy and all that other good stuff, you get a lot of 

Mike Matthews: positive reinforcement because other people notice, Hey, did you start working out? Hey, you look great. Da. And you get more and more of that.

And everybody likes that. Of course. It’s good. 

Noah Kagan: Dude, exactly. It’s [00:47:00] great. So I, for me, I have a scale and I always try to weigh myself or go on my scale when I’ve been naughty. That’s like the time. And I hate doing it, but I love facing it. And that’s where you don’t put your head in the sand.

You look at it and you’re like, all right, I’m a little chubby. But the thing that still blows my mind is like you get back to whatever amazing body you have. It doesn’t matter. I think that’s the problem that people do is they get that up to the pinnacle and they crash back down. And it’s no, just figure out what that sustainable lifestyle is that you’re enjoying and giving you the results you want.

Mike Matthews: Yeah, make sure that just move the goalpost. That’s like you, you had said it earlier. That’s anything though, that’s business. We, I think we have a, what is it? The great Western disease, right? Is I’ll be happy when I’ll be happy when I Oh yeah. When I have the abs. Or I’ll be happy when I have the, the house or the car or the X million dollar a year business or whatever.

And that just never works. I think I agree that happiness is much more found. It’s something that. You can’t really pursue. I think it more ensues from how you live and a lot of it, I do agree is comes from making progress [00:48:00] toward knowable and meaningful goals, whatever those goals are, having that sense of forward motion is crucial.

I think that’s really 

Noah Kagan: interesting. Yeah, that’s really interesting. Because things either get 

Mike Matthews: worse or get better, right? Nothing. Nothing. Just look around and the, every, everything around us is in a constant state of decay. That’s just the reality, right? Over time, things, physical things, they just get worse and worse.

So if we were to apply that to ourselves as well, what does that mean? It means that if we’re not actively working to make ourselves better and you can look at that in terms of your personal sphere your body, your mind your Possessions, whatever the things that you do with your time, your work, or you can look at it.

You can expand out into a relationship. You can expand that out into your groups, society on the whole, whatever, how, as far as you want to go. If you’re not actively working to make things better, they’re getting worse. They’re not staying the same. I believe that. I don’t know if you, I don’t know what your thoughts are, but like you have two [00:49:00] choices.

You can expand or you can contract. That’s it. And for whatever reason, psychologically, expansion feels good and contraction feels bad. 

Noah Kagan: I was just thinking that, you know how you talk to these people that are in health, like you, or me, I’m a little bit in health, and they’re so sometimes fucking annoying about it.

Health is so important. Yeah. Sometimes I think about it. As if it’s like the only is there anything else to you, or is this? No, I agree with that. But at the same time, I was also thinking, I totally agree. Sometimes it’s okay, I get it. You’re vegan and you love CrossFit.

Got it. But on the flip side, I think there’s something there where. If everyone’s like having a lot of fun at this party, there might be something there to it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Everyone’s just Yo, I’m having a great, this is a blast, you should come and join me on this fun slip and slide.

So I don’t know, maybe there’s something to what all the things that you’ve been educating and teaching people about for so long. You know that. Yeah. I like your stuff. I still read your stuff. But dude, I know I’m just fishing 

Mike Matthews: for more compliments. You know what I mean? Oh, stop, dude.

Stop. Hey there. It is Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and [00:50:00] found it interesting and helpful. And if you did and don’t mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet, then please leave a quick comment. review of it on iTunes or wherever you’re listening from.

This not only convinces people that they should check the show out, it also increases its search visibility and thus helps more people find their way to me and learn how to build their best bodies ever too. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then just podcast and you won’t miss out on any of the new goodies.

Lastly, if you didn’t like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at mike at muscleforlife. com and share your thoughts on how you think it could be better. I read everything myself and I’m always looking for constructive feedback, so please do reach out. All right, that’s it. Thanks again for listening to this episode and I hope to hear from you soon.

This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills. 

Noah Kagan: But [00:51:00] I’m not 

Mike Matthews: big on promoting stuff that I don’t personally use and believe in, so instead I’m just going to quickly tell you about something of mine. Specifically, my flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now this book has sold over 200, 000 copies in the last several years.

And helped thousands and thousands of men and women get the bodies they really want eating the types of food that they really love. Which is why it has over 700 reviews on Amazon with a 4. 5 star average. If you want to know how to build your best body ever without having to follow a boring, bland, quote unquote, body building diet.

And if you want 125 of my personal favorite recipes for building muscle, Losing fat and getting healthy, then you want to pick up the Shredded Chef today, which you can find on all major online retailers like Audible. Yes, there are audiobook cookbooks. It is a thing. Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google [00:52:00] Play.