Ryan Holiday on how to turn adversity into triumph

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Hey, this is Mike Matthews from muscle life. com. And in this episode of my podcast, I’m going to be interviewing Ryan holiday. Ryan is a media strategist. And kind of a marketing expert, I guess you could say. He’s a best selling author. He has a few books under his belt. His most recent book that just came out maybe a month or so ago is called The Obstacle is the Way.

It’s a very good book. I definitely recommend it. We’re going to be talking about it. I actually did recommend it in one of my Cool Stuff of the Week posts. And we’re gonna be talking about it here in this podcast. I’ll give you a little background on Ryan. He has advised various best selling authors and big musicians on their media strategies and just kind of their marketing in general.

He’s the Director of Marketing America at American Apparel. And he is he’s a smart guy. He’s an interesting dude. I think you’re gonna like the podcast. So let’s get to it. All right. Hey, Ryan, thanks for taking time to come on the show. 

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, it’s good to be here. 

Mike Matthews: Cool. All right. So let’s just get right into it.

So you wrote, I, the first thing [00:04:00] of yours that I came across was a blog post. I think you wrote a little bit while back now. And you, you were talking about something you called savagery and, and the message really resonated with me after I, you know, I was reading it and that’s when I was like, I like this guy.

So can you kind of share the, the, the message of that post? 

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, I guess if anything, the post was sort of a reaction against sort of how soft and sheltered a lot of us happen to be in our lives. It’s like, look, I’m sitting here writing or talking with you like in an office. I’m, I work from home, you know, like, In 

Mike Matthews: an air conditioned, you have food within arm’s length and 

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, right, right, and then if I was going to go to the gym later, maybe I go to 24 hour fitness and I jog on a treadmill while I watch television, you know, it’s just this It’s this sort of, we, we sort of strip a lot of the confrontation and conflict out of our lives and then we wonder sort of why when we are challenged or tested, we [00:05:00] suddenly feel very overwhelmed and we have trouble we have, we have trouble with that, the sort of violence of that situation and, and, you know, violence can have a lot of different connotations.

You know, in my life, like, when I, I, I’ve very much tried to sort of push the limits of what I’m capable of, sort of physically, mentally. I try to, you know, challenge myself psychologically, intellectually. So that, that post was about, about, you know, two years ago I started training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu off and on.

I’ve, I’ve run really long distances for a long time. I, I, you know, I try to, I don’t take rest days. The, the post is sort of about Pushing yourself past what you were capable about, capable of. And what you’re comfortable with, right? Yeah, and not in the, oh, I’m training for a marathon. It’s like, gonna be a really fun experience with all my friends kind of way.

But like, you know, throwing yourself at it again and again and again. And taking a beating, taking some bruises, getting scratched up. Really liking [00:06:00] that sort of Liking how it feels when you’re wavering on the edge of what, you know, is and isn’t possible. And that’s sort of what that post is about. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that.

I’ve written about similar things on, on my website and how. There, there definitely is a correlation there, or at least there’s a similarity with, you know, you talk about working out, which my, obviously my world is more fitness. And this is all relevant because I also do, I write a bit on, I guess you could say, you could say it’s self help, but more self improvement and in these types of subjects as well.

And I, I’ve talked about that multiple times, just that. Working out regularly and pushing yourself regularly. It definitely does inculcate a bit of mental toughness. I mean, we can’t say that we’re as tough as Navy SEALs. Okay, but, but, you know, we’re, if you are, especially depending on what you do, like if you’re going in the gym and yeah, you just sit on the treadmill and walk for 20 minutes watching TV.

No, you’re not. I don’t think that really qualifies, but if you’re [00:07:00] going and pushing yourself, whether it be running or whether it be weightlifting you know, and having to confront that effort that you have to. Put out that it’s not easy and you have to, you know, whatever sort of mental reasons you might have not do it, you have to push through it.

There’s value in that in other areas of your life. Because, you know, the effort that it takes to deadlift 500 pounds, that’s a lot more effort than it takes to go do some work that you’ve been putting off. I mean, really it is, right. You know, maybe there’s some mental obstacles, but come on. You know, and that, that post also made me think of just, you know, soft times make soft people.

And, and that’s, that’s totally, and you talk about the bit in your new book, the obstacle is the way. And I totally agree with that. It made me think of, I don’t know how familiar you are with, with Mongolian history, but yeah, so, so it was one of Genghis Khan’s grandchildren. I don’t remember actually which one it was, but it was.

There was a point when the, the empire was, he saw it was getting soft because of all the Chinese luxuries that were coming in and he instituted [00:08:00] the tradition or I mean, it wasn’t, I wouldn’t say it’s just more of a rule or was it was a, is a system whereby people had to be rotated, soldiers had to be rotated out into the steps every, you know, they had to spend six months.

They could spend six months kind of in their luxurious, you know, sitting in their version of the air conditioned office, you know, eating food, getting fat. And then they had to go out into the rough, rugged steps for six months just to keep his people tough because he saw that they were declining in their ability to fight and just mentally declining.

They were just becoming weak people. And, you know, his, his, his reminder of that was he even, he planted a bit of the grass from the steps in his backyard of his, you know, the, the palace that he had in that area. Nice. Well, yeah, 

Ryan Holiday: look, in the, the book that, the, the book that I’ve written here, The Obstacles to Weather, The Stokes, which is based on Stokes, and the Stokes talked about this too, this idea of practicing poverty or practicing misfortune on a regular basis.

So you’re not, one, you’re not afraid of it, and two, you’re familiar with it if, God forbid, it ever [00:09:00] happens to you. And I think And you don’t freak out. Yeah, what I’m talking about in the savagery idea is a very stoic idea. It’s this idea that, you know, these are a part of life, and you don’t get anything out of pretending that they are not, or, you know, sort of sticking your head in the sand about them.

It’s not to say that you should go around picking fights with people, but, you know, don’t delude yourself into thinking that you instinctually know exactly what you will do in a fight, or that you have any idea of what your actual boundaries or sort of limitations are. If you haven’t, if you haven’t been sort of Testing yourself on the, on the, on the floor, trying it out.

And I think, you know, for certain people this matters more than others, but I do think it’s an important part of being sort of balanced, well adjusted resilient person. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it also, it relates to success. I mean, I would say really in any area of life, I mean, there’s an obvious similar correlations with like success in terms of what does it take to make a lot of money?

What does it take to build a [00:10:00] successful career or build a successful business? It takes you know, it takes a lot of work and it takes, there needs to be a bit of that.

And you know, there are a lot of things to overcome, which of course we’re gonna talk more about in a minute. It’s just really, you know, relates to, to, to this book that you’ve written. But even in other areas, like what does it take to have a great relationship with, with someone, you know, after that initial, the fun, you know, first few months and then that’s done.

And then to actually build a good relationship, it takes, it doesn’t have to be like, I mean, if you’re with the right person, it doesn’t, it can be, you can feel You know, all in all, it can feel great and maybe, you know, be overall an enjoyable experience, but everybody goes through their stuff and, you know, do you give up or do you push past those those things and figure out ways to make it work?

Because you know, I don’t really believe that two people are ever really a hundred percent perfect for each other. You know, everybody has, you know what I mean? Everybody has this struggle. Yeah. Everything 

Ryan Holiday: is a struggle. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, totally. So, I mean, you might as well just segue into, into your. Book that you just launched which I’m in the middle of reading And I think it’s great right up my alley totally my type of thing [00:11:00] and it’s called the obstacle is the way So just to let the listeners know, so basically and correct me if I’m wrong, but here’s the it boils down to how to, how to basically turn adversity into triumph.

And in it you go over and you cover a lot of historical ground and I like that you kind of distill each section down into kind of useful, actionable advice. Where, you know, I’m, I’m a fan of Robert Greene’s work, which you’ve done a lot of research for, right? Like you researched for, for several of his books.

And, you know, he I, I’m a fan of his work, but, you know, some of those were, whereas maybe something that he would go into for 50 pages, giving a ton of historical, which I’m actually into. I liked it. Yeah, but, but, you know, you’ve, you’ve taken that and, and distilled down the, what are the key things that, you know that illustrate the point you’re making and how can you deliver that in a, in a way that is effective, but, you know, not necessarily belabored.

So I think, I think what you’ve done is great. I’m really enjoying it. 

Ryan Holiday: Awesome. Yeah, no, I wanted it to be as short and [00:12:00] concise as it conceivably could. Because I wanted people to read it over and over again and to rely on it. Like when you look at Stoic literature, it’s very short. It’s very to the point.

It’s in some ways it’s actually sort of repetitive, but in a good way, it’s meditating on the same ideas from different angles. And that’s what I wanted this book to be. And I wanted, I wanted it to be memorable. I wanted people to walk away with. Two or three or four or five stories that particularly stuck out to them.

Yeah. So when they, when they faced an analogous situation in their own life, 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, they think back to that. Oh, yeah, you know, this, this, my situation might suck, but it didn’t suck as bad as so and so’s or, you know, remember back to, well, that person, what did, what did that person do to overcome it or whatever?

Ryan Holiday: Right. Exactly. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. So, okay. So the book’s broken down into a few thematic sections, right? So you have perception, action, and will. So let’s talk a little bit about each. Obviously let’s start with perception and which is kind of about how our perceptions of the world affect our ability to, [00:13:00] to succeed, to overcome obstacles and to affect our, our surroundings.

Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, sure. Sure. Part 1 could more or less be summarized by the idea that there is no good or bad, there is only perception. There is only how we see the problem. 

Mike Matthews: Right. 

Ryan Holiday: You know, this is most A problem that I’m having right now, you might kill to have my problem, right?

Because it might be, you know, a sort of a first world problem. It might be something that’s attached to something you’ve always wanted to do. I have so much 

Mike Matthews: money, what do I do with it? 

Ryan Holiday: Right, whatever, we might, you, all of us would trade places with different people who right now are fucking feeling sorry for themselves, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So. What I’m saying, so that should, I’ve had to 

Mike Matthews: actually step back myself sometimes and like consciously reframe some of my problems where like stuff, I mean, not, not as ridiculous as I have so much money, what do I do with it? But you know, things related to work and all the different, because I have a lot of projects that I’m involved in where, you know, feeling like, Oh, I wish I had some, I wish I had some time to just sit down and do something random, like, you know what I mean?

But then [00:14:00] sometimes I think like, what am I, come on, look at. I think back to even this before I was reading your book, but I just, some of these things I just instinctively would be like, all right, settle down for a second. Let’s like put this in the context here of, you know, how am I really looking at this?

Am I, can I, where, how can I, like, is, is that really the way that that’s just weak? Like I’m just being soft. You know what I mean? 

Ryan Holiday: Sure. Right. No. And that’s sort of what the section is about. It’s how you. How we look at problems tends to define whether we’re going to be able to solve them or not. Are we looking at it objectively?

Are we focused on the present moment, or are we obsessed with things that are outside of our control? Are we focused on perhaps the opportunity inside an obstacle? Or are we only focused on the, the, the less than ideal parts of the situation? Or are we, do we have a constrained or limited view of what is or isn’t possible?

You know are we looking at this with, with the proper perspective of all these sort of things? That’s part one is, is about preventing what happens with most people, which [00:15:00] is they face some sort of obstacle or difficulty and then the first thing they do is make it a lot worse by overreacting or not understanding it, right?

Mike Matthews: And how do you think like, so, so let’s talk about like practicality of that. So somebody has, I mean, everybody has their problems, they have their things. In my opinion, I think people. Problems are almost a necessity of life. If people, there’s people that don’t have good enough problems, they invent them, they’ll always figure out something.

And you see this a lot in the idle rich. You see people that either, you know, I know. A fair amount of people that have inherited money or you know, they’re in, they’re just in money and their problems are so trivial and so stupid but to them, their problems are like, this is the biggest thing and they’re, they’ve been, you know, grappling with this for however long now.

But so you have somebody that’s maybe not in that situation. So something. And you say like that things that are, you know, whether something, something happens, that’s objective, whether it’s good or bad is subjective. But how does that practically work? So something clearly bad [00:16:00] happened. Well, I say clearly that you lose, you, you, you lose something 

Ryan Holiday: unexpected or something 

Mike Matthews: that negatively affects your life happens.

And that’s if we’re going to put a qualitative measurement on it. That’s bad. You know, you get into an accident and you break your arm you know, it’s hard. You don’t. You can’t really just be like telling yourself. This is good. This is good. This is good I don’t think that’s gonna really do it. 

Ryan Holiday: Well, it’s it’s funny.

You know, I was writing my first book I was actually I would write it at this club that I was a member of I’m riding my bike to this club and I my bike gets stuck in a streetcar track and I fall I I shatter my left elbow and I’m left handed. 

Yes, 

Ryan Holiday: so I’m like it’s all over man Like I’m gonna lose like two months of writing It’s fucking hurts.

It’s the worst. But, but I, you know, I’ve obviously studied this a long time. This before I started this book, but it was, there was a couple of things. It was like, okay, look, I, I hurt myself. I’m in physical pain. Is this not an opportunity for me to practice sort of [00:17:00] strength and toughness under physical pain?

Like, I can’t, I can’t make it go away. But is this not practice for, so it’s not about, I thought about you 

Mike Matthews: just telling yourself, Oh no, this is good. This is good. It’s more like, well, how can I take, how can I make something positive out of this? 

Ryan Holiday: Exactly. Exactly. It’s not saying the glass is, the glass is half full.

If it’s objectively not full, it’s how do you do something that changes that status quo? So, you know, I, again, I thought I was going to lose all this time. I end up. Because I can’t really exercise, I end up actually taking really long walks on a, both outside and on a treadmill. I not only get in some of the best shape that I’ve ever been in in my life because of this injury, but I, because of these long walks, because long walks sort of idle walking stimulates the mind, in my experience, I end up having these creative breakthroughs that make the book a much, much better, it took me forever to ultimately write them down with one hand, but It’s the book would not be what it was if I had not broken my arm and I wouldn’t have chosen to broken to break my arm and it hurt like hell, but [00:18:00] but because of how I responded, I didn’t choose for it to happen, but I chose how I responded.

The response made it beneficial. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, yeah, that I can totally see. And I think that’s just a useful and something I guess I also would instinctively type of kind of do when situation is, you know, whatever. Marie. Especially being in, if you’re out there doing things like you say in the book, things are going to go wrong.

You’re going to have obstacles and people, not only are you going to have, you know, you have the environment to deal with whatever that is, but you have other people. Other people are going to try to stop you. And especially as you doing whatever you’re doing, if you’re, if you’re becoming more successful, some people, they don’t like that.

That is, that’s enough for them to just be like, I don’t like that person. And I, you know, and if they’re in a position to try to stop you, they will. So I, yeah, I totally. Can, can I have, I understand that where things, things that go bad, where there’s a point where like you have your emotional, I mean, I don’t think it’s also necessarily, I mean, do you agree [00:19:00] that it’s not like you never feel emotions, you have emotional responses to things, but it’s then bringing them under control and being like, okay.

That sucks. But what am I going to do now? Am I just going to sit here and wallow in my misery, and I’m just going to sit here and be angry or rage or whatever? Or am I going to actually find out how can I keep on moving forward and not let this stop me, you know? 

Ryan Holiday: Totally. And, and it’s, it’s like, how can I, with my response, 

Mike Matthews: Yeah.

Ryan Holiday: change the circumstances that I am in? Because they’re not going to change themselves, my having an emotional reaction to something is going to make it better. 

But, 

Ryan Holiday: and that sort of leads to the next section of the book, the action. How can I first get my head straight, so then when I start acting, it can transform this thing from what it is, to what I would rather it, rather it be.

Mike Matthews: Yeah, yeah, because I mean there’s definitely A, there’s a difference of action, I [00:20:00] think, with, taken with belief that it’s going to do something and also performed with some intention to have something happen as opposed to action that’s just kind of half hearted and, you know, you don’t really think it’s going to go anywhere.

You know, those are two very different types of actions or types of, you know, types of way of going about doing things and that, that perception aspect is definitely going to kind of determine where you’re at and, and do you go, do you go into something like, you know, with your pedal to the floor or are you just like, you know, just giving it a little bit of gas and, and, and then assuming that you’re going to be swerve off the road and, you know, whatever.

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, of course. Look, you’re not gonna, if your head’s not straight, you can’t act right. So it’s like right action follows the right perception. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. So let’s talk about the action section. So that, I mean, obviously the section is about taking action, but, you know, you say in the book that it’s not about just doing stuff, but it’s about doing the right stuff.

Mm hmm. So what do you, what do you mean by that? Yeah, 

Ryan Holiday: it’s like, look you know, [00:21:00] Someone puts a brick wall in front of you, you could throw yourself at it forever. It’s probably, you’re probably going to break before it does. So you, so maybe you think about how you go around, right? And so the, the, that there’s stories that, you know, I actually, I literally sort of in that vein, I talk about the seizure of Vicksburg, which is, I think one of the seminal battles of the civil war, Ulysses S Grant, if he faces this Confederate fortress and he tries attacking it from all these different angles, it won’t work.

It’s sort of high above this perch on the Mississippi River. He ends up going down and around, and then he pins them inside the fort. Like, inside their own fort. And it’s, it, to me, it’s this great metaphor, because it’s like, here, from one angle, this problem is insurmountable. From another angle, that problem is the other person’s problem.

You know? Like, now, you’re, now your fortress and the fact that it backs up to a river means you’re stuck in it. And so when I talk about an action, the action phase is one, it’s, [00:22:00] it’s about getting started and getting off your ass, which not enough people do, and about having energy and enthusiasm and persistence, but two, it’s about thinking creatively, thinking for workarounds and shortcuts and such, so you’re not, it’s not about brute force, like in, in jujitsu, you never challenge the person where they are strong, you don’t try, if, if someone’s got you with their leg, Which is much more powerful than an arm.

You don’t try to push on it or pull against it as hard as you can. You have to find a different place where you have leverage. And so, so the action it’s, it’s that twofold. It’s the energy and the enthusiasm, of course. But it’s also about being smart and deliberate and targeted with what you do. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah you know, that also makes me think of Alexander the Great and his stories of, I think of the, the Siege of Tyre in particular, which was the same type of thing.

It was an impenetrable fortress and the ingenuity, you know, he built the, the, the highway across the, the river to attack [00:23:00] where he wanted to. It’s just, and he, I think of, I mean, he did that over and over and over where he is up against Essentially insurmountable odds were, you know, in some cases even his officers were telling him like, give up, turn, like, we can’t, there’s no way we win this, like, we know, you know.

And, and he figured it out every time. I mean, to the point obviously where he was just considered invincible. Like, his enemies, they, they just stopped even fighting, because they stopped resisting him as he was moving through Persia, because they just, like, figured that if he could do that He can do anything.

So like, whatever. We’re just, we’re just going to join him. Sure. And yeah. So which of which in, in the action section of the book, like, are there any, are there any particular lessons that, that really resonated with you? Maybe also in particular, like, like that point of enthusiasm. How do you, how do you personally where, where’s your wellspring of enthusiasm?

Where does that come from? Cause a lot of people obviously have run into that issues where they’ll have ideas, but. Why, you know, why is it hard for people to translate that into, let’s, let’s [00:24:00] do something. 

Ryan Holiday: My, my friend, Charlie Hone had a, he said something good recently that I liked. He was saying, it’s amazing how hard people work to get jobs that they don’t want.

And so it’s like, where’s my enthusiasm 

Mike Matthews: from? It’s like the fight club thing to buy shit they don’t need. Right, 

Ryan Holiday: exactly. It’s like, why did you, of course you’re, you’re, you know, you’re fatigued and exhausted by these obstacles. You worked yourself into this corner that you’re miserable in. You know, like, my enthusiasm and passion for my work comes from the fact that I’m enthusiastic and passionate about my work.

I don’t need to fake it, right? Like, I found a job and a calling that, you know, means something to me. But I think if I was to say, like, what sort of section in part, part two of the action section matters the most, like, To me, it’s, it’s I love the story of Amelia Earhart, you know, basically her first offer for a transatlantic flight is like, it’s like, hey, you’re our second choice.

You’re not going to pay you. And we’re going to send two male [00:25:00] chaperones along. What do you think of that? And she said yes, right? She said yes, like I’ll do it anyway. Even though this is offensive and terrible. Because there is no ideal starting point. It’s always hard. It’s always less than ideal.

And the people who do great things are willing to say yes to more or less whatever. It’s like with my first book, they gave me a nice advance. But, you know. They don’t know this, but if they’d offered me a dollar, I probably would have said yes. Because I was willing to do whatever it took to get my foot in the door and get started.

And I’ve been that way my whole life. And, but you see this with a lot of millennials. It’s like, oh, job market’s not good? Moving back home with mom and dad. And, and then they, they get so comfortable, they stay there. And they won’t leave until they get something better, and it’s like sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards.

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah, and you have to, I mean, it kind of also goes back to that savagery kind of idea. You have to be willing to fight for what you [00:26:00] want. You know, I think that the world, the social sort of veneer of things is very shiny and very nice, and it’s very easy to live, and you go to your grocery store and get all your food, and it’s like The, the, the real problems that we had to deal with a couple hundred years ago was like, if you didn’t go to work, you died, you had no food, you starved to death.

Like if, if you were willing, if you were so apathetic that you’re just going to starve to death. Well, that’s no, that’s not the, that’s not people now that that’s another level. If these people had to go work, you know 70 hours a week to feed themselves and feed their families. Yeah. And then, you know, let’s say like physically you have to go work the farm, like that’s it, that that’s how you live, you don’t, that that’s, there’s a certain sort of a level of necessity there that is just gone now because it’s so simple, you don’t even have to move, you can just sit on your couch and order pizza and have it brought to you, probably have the guy come to your couch and give it to you, right?

And you have to go to the bathroom and you can sleep on the couch. So that’s about it. 

Ryan Holiday: Right. 

Mike Matthews: [00:27:00] And, and so it kind of goes back to that point that you have to be willing to fight for something. And, and, you know, you have to, you talk about this in, in, in your book where their conflict, it’s just, it’s inherent in anything obstacles you’re going to run up on.

I mean, that’s any game that you’re trying to play, there are going to be obstacles. So don’t, don’t, don’t be afraid of them. Don’t try to look away from them. Don’t, you know, find out like, how do you play a game? You go, you figure out ways around the obstacles to get to the goals. So 

Ryan Holiday: sure and look that that’s sort of how the last That that’s the last section of the book as well, which is this idea of like like look Put your helmet on and get ready, man.

Cause this is how it is, and how it’s always going to be. Maybe it hasn’t been for you yet, maybe you’ve been lucky, but it’s tough out there, and just when you think you got through one crisis, there’s probably going to be another. Those are the breaks of trying to do great things. It’s just how it happens.

And so [00:28:00] you better, you know, you better prepare. 

Mike Matthews: And I think, I mean, I think it applies to, cause this idea of doing great things can, it’s kind of vague. Like what does that mean? You’re doing great things, you know what I mean? But even on a personal level, like let’s say somebody, you’re not trying to change the world necessarily, but you want to do work you enjoy.

You want to have a family. You want to be able to provide for them. You know, you don’t care to be a multi, multi, multimillionaire, but you want to have enough money to do the things that you want to send your kids to good schools or whatever. I think that all applies like that in a sense these days almost is doing a great thing.

Ryan Holiday: Sure. Right. No, no, it’s true that that’s how it is. There’s that last section 

Mike Matthews: we can go right in. So that’s the will section, right? Mm hmm. 

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, that’s and it’s not just the idea of willpower but this idea of sort of understanding How the world is and how sort of minuscule you are inside that world and why you need to be prepared to be tossed Around it’s like look we live in this world that we don’t control And if you can understand this and accept that and sort of humble yourself in [00:29:00] front of it, then you can Focus yourself on the things that you can change.

So it’s, it’s, it’s not to say it’s a dark part of the book, but I talk about everything from, you know, perseverance to understanding your own mortality towards you know, sort of preparing yourself for difficult times, the ability to think about the things that are going to go wrong in advance. So they’re not, you know, surprises.

It’s, it’s a way of, it’s like, look, I would rather prepare. Not to say like I’m some doomsday prepper or something, but I would rather, I would rather be more or less. for things to get a lot worse and be pleasantly surprised that it all turned out fine. I’m 

Mike Matthews: doomsday prepped to a degree. I have guns and I have a lot of bullets and I have, and I have cash and I have silver.

So I’m prepped to a degree actually. Sure. No, I totally agree. I mean, you talk about the idea of cultivating sort of like a resilience and a flexibility that allows you to. You know, make it [00:30:00] through, through what I guess you’d say dark times. You know, in that chapter, which of the stories that the kind of vignettes, which, which appeal to you or which like spoke most to you?

Ryan Holiday: I mean, you know, relevant to this podcast, I love the story of Theodore Roosevelt, you know, he’s sort of, he’s born with crippling asthma. His father comes in one day, he’s 12 years old. And he’s like, look, Theodore, you’re a brilliant little kid. But it’s not enough just to have a great mind. Like you have to have a strong body too.

And he’s like, look, I’m going to build you a gym. Like you got to take advantage of it. And he ends up building them this gym. It’s on the back porch of his house on. 20th Street, Manhattan. You can actually see it still. It’s pretty crazy. But he said he’s like, look, I’ll make my body. And he ends up transforming himself into the Theodore Roosevelt that we now know the sort of adventurous, outdoorsy, risk taking, brave, courageous man.

Yeah. It almost 

Mike Matthews: like he tried it almost like as if he was modeling himself after Achilles or something. 

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, but he was doing it because he knew what it was like to be weak [00:31:00] and frail. And he knew. What danger that placed him in and he didn’t want to be like that anymore and he knew that he had that the world was hard out there and That he had to prepare himself if you wanted to do what he wanted to do He had to sort of he had to be both physically and mentally prepared for it And so that’s sort of what the will chapter is about or the will section is about 

Mike Matthews: right?

Yeah Yeah, you know and even speaking on the physical Like I was saying kind of earlier in the podcast, I think that having a strong body it, it just, it has effects in, in terms of has mental effects, not just like, oh, you know, dopamine, you feel better when we’re like exercising, but just it, I, there definitely is some spillover in terms of like maybe, maybe it’s a self confidence thing.

Maybe it just kind of comes from that where if you have, you have a strong body, if you’re in shape, you’re healthy, you just feel better and you’re, it affects your perception of the world for sure. And it affects your perception of yourself too and what you’re capable of. And, you know, I think that the, the, the fitness world is, is pretty cheesy in terms of like, [00:32:00] you know, taking selfies and like, Oh, you know, the whole, you know aesthetic.

I mean, I have, I take selfies to some of the, I guess I kind of have to, to prove that at least I know what I’m talking about in terms of fitness. But you have that element of it, which is all just about vanity, like, Oh, aesthetics, you know, get shredded or whatever. And and that’s one end right thing. I think that’s, that’s just kind of a joke.

But then there is, you know, these aspects of fitness are actually more what I’m interested in, or at least what I’m equally interested in. Because I’ve, I’ve, I’ve experienced that effect where you know, if I’m on my workout routine regularly, I have, I have more energy, which of course is just going to affect how I go about things.

Like if I’m kind of sleepy and I’m trying to do something that’s very different than if I’m like totally there doing it. But also, you know, I think just the willingness to exert effort, like I’ve talked about that many times and it kind of goes back to, I guess it’s more of an action thing, but just the idea, like if somebody, you know, you, you say you want to do something, if the first thought is like, Oh, but that’s going to be [00:33:00] hard, like.

You need to stop and change that. You, do you agree? 

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, look one of my favorite authors is Haruki Murakami he has this book called What I Talk About When I Talk About Running, and he’s saying, like, to him, running is both an exercise and a metaphor. And it’s a metaphor for how he wants to live his life, which is You know, why effort matters, why perseverance and discipline matters, why heart matters, why focus matters.

I think it’s true. It’s like, look, it’s not about having big muscles so you can tell people you have big muscles. It’s about having muscles so you can use them. And so, and also because of the process of getting them was worthwhile. . 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. And there are a lot, there’s, you get a lot more than big muscles out of, you know what it, of that, of the, of the, in the routine that it takes to get there, that you have to show up every day.

You have to put in the work, and there’s no bullshitting yourself. You can’t, you can’t delude yourself. You either do the work and get the results or you don’t, [00:34:00] and you see it in the mirror or you don’t, you know, so the, being able to stick to something and, and, and also be patient. I mean, I think that’s a, I don’t know, a lesson that I’ve kind of learned, especially in business where learning what it takes to really put something there and, and being willing to, and, you know, some of what you’re talking about, perception resonated with me.

Because I mean, I’m not like a natural. I’m not a very, I’m not overly emotional type person, but I would get frustrated over little things that were setbacks, you know, people’s stupid mistakes and whatever. Like how, how stupid is this person? Are you serious? Do I have to explain everything kind of and, and to learn the patience that it takes to, to, to do you know, to do anything that is.

It’s not necessary. This is not easy. And, and, you know, if, if things, if building a great body were easy, everybody would have a great body. If, if building a great life was easy and that’s not just like making money, but that’s like a life that you actually enjoy with people that, you know, you like to be around and that actually.

Contribute [00:35:00] something to your life. You know, that’s not easy. So I, I look, 

Ryan Holiday: it’s not, it’s not just that. It’s like, if it was easy to have, like muscles and to be in good shape, everyone would be in good shape and it wouldn’t be much value outside of the actual health benefits of being in good shape. If making lots of money was easy, everyone would have lots of money and everyone would be exactly the same.

The point is it’s supposed to be hard. And it’s good that it’s hard because you have, like what I’m saying in the book is with these strategies and just inherent in you, you have what it takes to endure the fact that it’s hard and you can get through to the other side. And once you are there, that that is where the value is because you’ve now separated yourself from everywhere else.

Now everyone else. Now you stand out. There are fewer people to share in the rewards at the end because most people don’t make it all the way. It’s good that it’s hard at the very least. That’s what you want to remind yourself is that it’s weeding out other people who are not as strong and dedicated as you.

Mike Matthews: Right. It’s [00:36:00] almost like a point of survival of the fittest. It’s like evolution. Right. But it’s on a social level. And, you know, I think that that’s, that is just a fundamental. So that, that you say a law is applies equally to, it’s not just to on a cellular level and we’re talking about species, but it applies, you know, in life in any endeavor or whatever that that is just the way it is.

And yeah, there, you know, things have gotten easier in terms of our problems now or not, you know, how do I stay alive? That’s not really the problem anymore, but it’s how do I, how do I actually live? You know what I mean? Like, how do I have a life that matters? Whereas, whereas in the past we didn’t, maybe you didn’t even have the luxury of that because you’re on the farm working the farm 12 hours a day.

Like you don’t, that, that is your life. Like you, that you don’t have time to think about, you know, am I watching too much Kardashians or something? 

Ryan Holiday: Right? No. In the past. And this, this is what I like when you, when you focus on, when you read something like Marcus [00:37:00] Aurelius, which is this book is, which is what this book is based on.

Everyone has had the same problems. Like right now, whatever problems you’re going through, other people had, it’s like maybe your computer is like a source of just that you’re addicted internet porn or something. If you’re just, it’s just sex plus, you know, being distracted plus too much time on your hands.

Right. The point is we’ve always had the same problems throughout history or 

Mike Matthews: just being, or just being a teenager. 

Ryan Holiday: Right. Plus, Plus, they had more imminent threats to their physical safety at any moment. So it’s like, whatever you think you’re going through, you come from a long line of people who went through the exact same thing, plus something worse.

So you have more, inside of you, objectively, there is plenty of capacity to get through and survive this thing. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I think, you know, looking back, it’s almost like these types of more, these modern psychological [00:38:00] problems are new in a, if you look at the bigger picture, because for so long the major problems were just related to like not getting a disease and dying, not starving to death.

And not like, you know, dying because of the hazards of just everyday life, not getting eaten by an animal or, you know, getting invaded and getting your head cut off because you just happen to be in the city at the wrong time or something like that. Sure. Whereas now we have, you know, our problems are more existential, which I think is kind of a newer type of problem for us to deal with.

So. 

Ryan Holiday: Sure. Look, we, but we’ve always had problems of abundance. Just what was abundant was different. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. And I, but I think it was probably like. It was less prevalent though. I mean, now I just saw a news story that there’s more, more obese people than starving people in the world. 

Ryan Holiday: Sure. But there’s, but what I’m saying is like, people have always suffered from obesity, right?

It’s not like it’s always been a thing. It’s, it’s a smaller percentage of the population as a whole, but there are basically no new problems under the sun. And so the reason I this book in [00:39:00] history is, is to focus on that and to say like, look, people have gone through this. They’ve written down what they went through.

Here it is, let’s let’s move on. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, alright, cool. Is there anything, anything, any kind of final words that you’d like to, to, to give to the listeners? 

Ryan Holiday: No, not really. I mean, look, the, the, the book, I tried to make it very straightforward. It, it’s something that, that. Helped me immensely in my own life.

I tried to write to codify these things that I use to help myself and to other people and you know, I hope it helps people with what they’re going through Obviously, I hope they don’t ever go through anything, but that’s probably not gonna happen 

Mike Matthews: Yeah, 

Ryan Holiday: and you know, I wanted this book to be a resource for people When that does happen in the in the way that stoicism has been there for me in my own life 

Mike Matthews: That’s great.

And, and just to kind of repeat. So the name of the book is the obstacle is the way and where can people find you, you know, your website. Yeah, 

Ryan Holiday: so my site is ryanholiday. net I write for a number of sites Thought Catalog, Fast Company, Entrepreneur. [00:40:00] com The New York Observer so you can read my site everywhere and just look up my name and then on this site I have a weekly newsletter where, or a monthly newsletter where I give out book recommendations if people like reading.

Mike Matthews: Cool. Great. And obviously the book is available anywhere where you buy books, basically. So wherever you like to buy books, you can find it. And like I said, I’m going to be, I’m going to be recommending it on, I do a weekly post where I recommend a book among other things. 

Ryan Holiday: Amazing. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, thanks for taking the time, Ryan.

I, I’m pretty sure everyone’s going to really like what we talked about. I know that these subjects are, you know, whenever I write about these things, talk about the things, I get a lot of good feedback. So that’s why I thought you’d be a perfect fit. 

Ryan Holiday: Awesome. Well, thank you very much for having me. 

Mike Matthews: Yeah.

Thanks again. 

Ryan Holiday: All right. Bye. 

Mike Matthews: Hey, it’s Mike again. Hope you liked the podcast. If you did go ahead and subscribe. I put out new episodes every week or two where I talk about all kinds of things related to health and fitness and general wellness. Also, head over to my website at www. muscleforlife. com, where you’ll find not only past episodes of the podcast, but you’ll also find a bunch of different articles that I’ve written.

I [00:41:00] release a new one almost every day. Actually, I release kind of like four to six new articles a week. And you can also find my books and everything else that I’m involved in over at muscleforlife. com. All right. Thanks again. Bye.