Ep. #447: Kurtis Frank on Improving Your Metabolic Flexibility

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If this sounds even remotely interesting to you, go ahead and schedule your call. Now, again, that URL is legionathletics. com slash coaching. Hello, boys and girls. Welcome. Welcome to another episode of the most for life podcast. I am Mike Matthews, and we are here to talk about metabolic flexibility. What is that?

One of the problems with rigidly following. a restrictive or even just a narrowly focused dietary protocol like low carb, which I would say is more of a restrictive protocol or even low fat, high carb, which are more just narrowly focused. And the reason why I’d say low carb is more restrictive is in actual practice.

It’s more restrictive. There are just a lot more foods that you can’t eat that you probably want to eat then when you are following a lower fat and higher carb diet. Anyways. So the problem is when you do that. Very rigidly, for a long time, when you do go off plan, for whatever reason, you can get slapped.

For instance, if you are a high carber, and you miss a meal, you might find that your energy levels plummet. Or if you’re a Low carber, and let’s say you splurge on some cake, let’s just have a piece of cake at a party, you might then find yourself craving and probably eating every other carb in sight.

Now ideally, these things wouldn’t happen. Ideally, our bodies would be able to adapt to varying levels. dietary circumstances to maintain an even physiological keel. In other words, our bodies ideally would possess a fair amount of metabolic flexibility. Now, if you haven’t heard of this term before, I understand because few people have, and in this episode, Curtis Frank, the one and only Curtis, returns to explain what it is and how to improve it so our bodies can better shift between different fuel types, which, as he explains, is really what this comes down to.

Because if our bodies can do that, they can be more adaptable to whatever situations we’re in. We find ourselves in, and in case you are not familiar with Curtis, he is the co founder and the former lead researcher and writer of examine. com. And he is the current director of research and development for my supplement company, Legion Athletics.

So here’s a quick sneak peek of some of the things that we talk about in this interview. We talk about insulin resistance and carb sensitivity. As you age, we talk about the signs that you lack metabolic flexibility and could benefit from some of the tips he’s going to share. He talks about how to avoid sugar crashes or carb triggered food binges and more.

Curtis has returned or is it beef chungus has returned? 

Kurtis: That is my name today. I am the chungus 

Mike: good. And I had to Google that. And then apparently according to urban dictionary that it includes, but is not limited to a chunky anus is the definition. And you didn’t know that. So you learned something.

Kurtis: I did not. But if we redefine that as beefy glutes, then I shall partake in that definition. 

Mike: Striated beefy glutes. Oh man, I need two chairs. My glutes are that chungus. Imagine. Imagine you’re on an airplane and that’s the complaint. My glutes are too large. Give me two seats. Just put your armrest up and you’re good.

Or just spill over. Invade their safe space. We’re not here to talk about chunky anuses or glutes. We’re here to talk about metabolic flexibility. Now, what does that mean? Is that a term that you just made up? I feel like it’s something that gets thrown around at all. Do other people talk about this? 

Kurtis: It’s a somewhat niche term and it’s technically non legitimate.

So it’s not a scientific terminology. It’s like how in the past when I talked about pseudovitamins is not a legitimate term at all. So if you try to like, Look through scientific evidence for pseudovitamins, you won’t find anything because it’s a non legitimate term that if it gets enough popularity, maybe it becomes legitimate.

And metabolic flexibility is also one of those things. But whether it’s legitimate or not, we can still talk about the concepts behind it. And at least when it comes to metabolic flexibility, that particular operationalization has been like temporary definition. That’s what operationalization means has been usually for Coaches that deal with athletes, they know of this and people who are trying to just cause weight loss or weight gain in people who are athletic at the end of the day, the entire initial premise of metabolic flexibility was We could use carbs as fuel, or we could use fats as fuel.

But sometimes we come across people who really easily use carbs as fuel, but for some reason they never use fats. And there are some people who very preferentially use fats as fuel. But if you give them carbs, they don’t get extra fuel. They just can’t utilize it that well. So the concept of can we switch between these two fuel sources is what led to the idea of metabolic flexibility.

Mike: And you just mean genetically you’re saying that their bodies are more suited to burning carbs versus fats and vice 

Kurtis: It’s not necessarily genetic, although that is a component. It is also just habituation. If you have a diet that’s say 30 percent proteins 50 percent carbs and then 20 percent fats That’s a very high carb diet.

So if you have that every day for a few months Your body will be forced to adapt to a high carb diet. But then if you immediately switch to a ketosis diet, where you have no carbs and just a bunch of fats, your body was just forced to adapt to using carbs as a fuel source. And now you’re gonna be temporarily unable to find enough glycogen as fuel, and you’re gonna go through some hell for a short period of time, until your body adapts once more.

And furthermore, if you’re adapted to using carbohydrates as a fuel source, you may be a bit stronger when it comes to anaerobic exercises. But your aerobic exercises are going to just fucking suck. But if you are adapted to fats, then you could be like an incredible jogger and all that, but you’re going to be weak as hell.

Mike: Is that the case though with, don’t you find high carb diets are still the go to for endurance athletes? 

Kurtis: It’s because they have metabolic flexibility. They can balance between the two things. 

Mike: They’re not eating that high carb diet for two months straight then. I guess you’d say cycling through their macros, 

Kurtis: essentially, but like the entire idea behind metabolic flexibility is that if you can have carbs and fats in your diet and utilize both of them efficiently, you’re going to be top grade, like top notch and all that stuff. But if for some reason there is an impairment that prevents you from switching between the two on an as needed basis, You can only unlock the bioenergetic potential of one of them, but not both.

Mike: So I guess it depends what you’re doing. If you’re just an everyday person who’s lifting weights and doing a little bit of cardio here and there, a high carb diet, probably generally it’s just going to be the way they go, right? 

Kurtis: Depends. As long as you’re not insulin resistant, like for me, I generally go by the idea where you’d want a higher.

Protein and carb diet, maybe lower fat diet in youth until you get to that point where carbs start making you fat and then you start transitioning over to a lower carb, higher fat diet. But if 

Mike: you do that transition well, like just to clarify, when you say carbs making you fat, obviously, you’re not saying that.

Eating carbs equals getting fatter, but you just mean as insulin resistance goes up, your body just gets worse and worse at processing the carbs that you eat, right? 

Kurtis: Correct. The carbs inherently do not make you fat, but as you age, different changes occur to your body, and there may very well be a day where the carbs are not processed as well as they should be.

And they’re more obesogenic than when you were like 18 or 20 or so. 

Mike: And is that the case if you do a good job taking care of yourself, though, if you stay active and you are, let’s say, an above average in terms of muscularity and you have a healthy body fat level and so forth? 

Kurtis: It is my personal belief that the change from carbs to fat during the aging process will be inevitable.

But by being active, by having a high muscularity and just take care of your health, you can delay that day for as long as you can. But that being said, like it’s not a specific topic of research where there’s too much evidence on it. Like just seeing people who were in their twenties and monitoring their diets for 80 years kind of thing.

That’s not something we have direct evidence on. It’s always going to be theoretical. That’s interesting. I haven’t heard of that before. Like it’s just more of a health theory and all that. Because. All the fat old people I’ve seen still eat a ton of carbs. The more healthy old people I see tend to have lower carb diets while at the same time being athletic.

The ones I talk to at least. They all mention that they always ate carbs until one day carbs just didn’t sit well with them and then they started reducing them. 

Mike: Yeah. I’ve had people mentioned that to me, actually people who were always into fitness. So it’s not like these weren’t sedentary people and they weren’t just ignorant and they just noticed the difference.

Yeah. People will say that there was a point, I want to say forties would probably be the earliest, probably more in the fifties where I’ve had people mentioned that to me where they’re just like, yeah, there was a point when their body just. Didn’t seem to do as well with carbs as it once did, even though they are still doing everything they’ve always been doing.

They’re staying in shape, they’re exercising, like they couldn’t do anything better. Actually, they’re doing everything they can. 

Kurtis: Yeah. So it’s just a natural consequence of aging. When you age, like this stuff’s going to happen eventually and nothing’s permanent. Like we’re all going to die one day. I nihilistic on everyone listening here.

But the best we can do is to delay that, and the reason I believe personally that these people were able to handle carbs so well for so long is because through just a balance of athleticism, a good diet, and just good rest and all that, they preserved metabolic flexibility for as much as they reasonably could.

And then the aging process started to kick in and then they started to have to respect the limitations of their body. Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. Yeah. The main problem that I see is when there’s people who are far younger, say people who are like 25 years old or so. And they’re already reporting Oh, I can have a nice carby breakfast, but then I have a sugar crash an hour later.

It’s no, you’re 25. That should not be happening. 

Mike: And in that case, obviously there are many different reasons why that could be happening, but if we’re assuming that they are taking generally taking care of themselves, I guess that’s where this point of metabolic flexibility could come into play.

Kurtis: Yes. Because when it comes to a sugar crash, you’re basically saying that you put carbohydrates in your body. And they energized you and you felt good. But then you went along your day, or whatever, and eventually your body metabolized all those carbohydrates. And at this point, it should have shifted the load for energy towards the fats stored in your abdomen, or wherever on your body.

There should have been a transient shift towards, okay, the carbs are done, fats, pick up the slack. And then it should have been smooth going on from there. But when you come to a sugar rush excluding any potent drugs if you take sugars laced with amphetamines obviously you’re going to feel a crash.

But if it’s just sugar, then you should have just been cruising for the next few hours. If you feel a crash because of that, it’s because your body was unable to mobilize fatty acids to provide energy in a sufficient manner. Which means that, for one reason or another, Your body just preferred to utilize carbs and did not pass the buck over to fats what it needed to be.

And if your body is in such a state, then at the very least, you’re going to have sugar crashes every time you eat carbs. And that’s just not a good way to live. 

Mike: And you’re probably also going to have a very hard time following any sort of intermittent fasting type diet. And if you miss a meal, you’re not going to feel great.

And those are. Also things that I’m sure are natural consequences of lacking that metabolic flexibility. 

Kurtis: Yeah. Cause if you’re say an 18 year old Olympian level athlete, you could temporarily deal with the lack of metabolic flexibility. As long as you just keep on pumping carbs in your face. If the sugar rush goes high.

Then as it’s about to go down, you just eat more sugars, it’s going to be high again. So as long as you have like that whole like six to eight meals a day, all high carb stuff. You can mitigate this stuff, even though you have no metabolic flexibility, but you become obscenely dependent on the foods that you’re eating.

But when it comes to just somebody who has a day job and has to have a breakfast and get out of the office, it’s no longer a practical option for them. They need to train their body to hop between carbohydrates and fats for energy and get the body used to the idea that, they’re both available energy sources.

You can’t just use one over the other, you have to use both. Hey quickly,

Mike: before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth. So if you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as well, Please do tell them about it.

It really helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say thank you. You can find me on Instagram at muscle for life fitness, Twitter at muscle for life and Facebook at muscle for life fitness. And maybe a good place to start in terms of practicality would be what are some signs, just things that people could go, Oh yeah, that’s me that you lack metabolic flexibility.

So you’ve mentioned sugar highs and sugar crashes. What are some other signs because I’ll take myself as an example, I don’t know. I think I’m pretty good in terms of, even though I do follow a high carb diet, it’s not super high carb, but like right now I’m eating in a slight surplus on my training days and then a larger deficit on my rest days just to mitigate some of the fat gain.

And so on my training days, I’m eating a fair amount of carbs. I’m eating probably 450 grams or so, so it’s not crazy, but it’s quite a bit. But then take, let’s say on the weekends, because I’m eating about 2000 calories per day on Saturday and Sunday, I’ll usually skip breakfast just so I can get the calories in.

I’ll skip breakfast and I’ll eat light throughout the day, mostly just some protein, maybe in some fruits and then just have a bigger dinner. Cause I just enjoy it more that way. And so I find that I’m. I’m fine. I feel good on my training days. It’s nice to have a bit more energy and I don’t have any energy highs or energy lows unless maybe I didn’t sleep well.

And on the weekends when I’m fasting for that, really, I’m just skipping breakfast, but it’s totally fine. I’m not hungry. I don’t get energy. So someone like, Me, it sounds like I probably I’m fine in the metabolic flexibility department and wouldn’t have anything to gain from maybe cycling my carbs up or my fats up or down or doing anything other than what I’m doing, right?

Kurtis: Yeah, it seems like you’re pretty much in the clear. So when it comes to seeing whether or not you’re susceptible to stuff, it depends on whether you’re high carb or high fat, because the symptoms are different. For somebody who’s on a high carb diet, the main factor is first, before we get into anything, I need to mention that carbohydrates, in and of themselves, do have the ability to cause euphoria, ton of energy, and I would say almost to someone who’s never had a carb in their life, it would definitely have a drug like effect for how potent they can be, but carbs in our life, so we’re used to it, so To us, carbs just seem like a food source.

To somebody who is on a high carb diet, they will feel none of these acute effects of carbohydrates. They’ll just feel energy. But they become very reliant on food frequency and meal frequency. I should say is the better term. And so if they don’t eat frequently, they have the sugar crashes. They all of a sudden have reduced energy between meals.

And they feel that they can never get something done unless they eat. It’s fine for a 19 year old Olympian. But when you’re a 35 year old house mother trying to lose weight. And the only way you can get energy is by eating more food. That’s not a good situation. So I would say that the main thing if you’re too carb dependent is if you have a high carb diet and the meal frequency and the timing around the meals, you have carbs, particularly also the glycemic index, just how fast the carbs hit you.

If that has a very high relation with your mood state and your energy levels, You may be too reliant on carbs. And of course if you go for five hours without eating and you just turn into a puddle of laziness and apathy upon the ground, you’re probably too reliant on carbs. Conversely, when it comes to people who are like super low carb dieters or keto dieters, they’re becoming very adapted to using both ketone bodies to fuel their bodies.

But they become susceptible to carbohydrates. And if a keto dieter is able to, go to a party with a few family friends, have a cupcake and just enjoy the party and go home, they’re in a good position. But if a keto dieter, it has some sort of high glycemic carbohydrate, and then they immediately go into binge mode, where they just, as I mentioned before our podcast started, turn into the Hulk and destroy every bakery within the city.

Then they’re not in good state of metabolic flexibility because carbohydrates are hitting them Too hard. They become pretty much subject to the carbohydrates that go on their face. The food has more power over them than their own thoughts do. 

Mike: Too horny for carbs. 

Kurtis: They’re horny for the carbs at this point.

That’s what 

Mike: I’m saying. Too horny for carbs. Yeah. It’s too much, man. 

Kurtis: Yeah, pretty much. At the end of the day, it’s all about your lifestyle and just how you feel about this stuff. Have you ever feel that by deviating from your diet a little bit, particularly when it comes to energy providing macronutrients?

If you deviate and you suffer from that, then the plan that you’re on is not suited towards your body. Because after all, a diet plan is supposed to support your body, support your lifestyle, and support whatever you do. But if you are condemned to your lifestyle plan, and the moment you step out of it, then you just suffer.

Because you deviated just the slightest, then the diet plan has more power over you than you have over yourself. It’s a shitty diet plan. 

Mike: Yeah, and it’s also just completely impractical, and what are you gaining from it? Again, unless your entire life revolves around your physical performance, and for whatever reason, that diet is what maximizes your physical performance, and it just sucks, and you know that, and any deviation from it is not enjoyable, But it gives you that tiny extra edge that can make all the difference in a high level sports.

Okay. I guess that could be an argument for it, but for everyday person who just wants to look good, feel good. Why go through that? 

Kurtis: Yeah. There’s really no reason aside from the fact like going into an extreme can at least some who just started the diet to provide rapid and drastic results. But then they just get used to the fact that this diet did me a benefit.

Thus, they should stay on this diet. 

Mike: And they don’t change at all carnivore diet, for example. 

Kurtis: Yeah, pretty much, which is honestly, I have to say it’s one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. 

Mike: Yeah. I wrote a long article about it and recorded a podcast on it and it just makes no sense unless you need to do a true elimination diet, and that’s a good way is to eliminate literally everything and just have some meat and start there and see what is messing your body up. But 

Kurtis: yeah, but even then Do you mind if I sidetrack a little bit? I’m all about tangents. Oh, sweet. Because one of the intellectuals that I follow the most that I adore the works of is Jordan Peterson.

Mike: So you’re a racist Nazi? 

Kurtis: Oh, totally. Definitely racist Nazi. Perfect. Liberal Nazis. They’re a plague. But yeah, like the entire thing with Jordan Peterson is like, whenever he speaks about his own field, psychology, I’m not in a position to disagree with him because the expertise is that much. When it comes to political issues, I am in a position to disagree because neither of us are politicians, but I don’t want to disagree because he seems right in all that stuff.

And then he mentions yeah, I’m on an all beef diet and I don’t eat vegetables or anything. And I’m just sitting there raging on my computer, it’s No, you were the chosen one. You were supposed to bring intelligence to the world, not to be a fucking dietary charlatan at the end of the day. 

Mike: His next book will be a diet book and he’ll start selling He’ll turn into a Stephen Gundry dude.

He’ll start selling fake supplements and shit. 

Kurtis: Jordan Peterson and the medical school. Anakin Skywalker, that kind of shit. And you just got to take the supplements. But the entire thing is he had health problems, which is fine. We all have health problems every now and then.

And he went into a phase one of an elimination diet where all he ate was meat and that’s a decent start to an elimination diet, but the entire point of an elimination diet is after you’ve proven that for week one, there’s no health side effects of what you’re eating. You’re supposed to start adding in more to see what the problems are.

Oh, you can eat beef and chicken? That’s great. Let’s add in broccoli and see if that harms you. Broccoli did not harm you? Congratulations, you’re allowed within the diet. Next week, bring in some onions. How do you feel? Oh, you feel bad? I guess onions don’t treat you that well, so you leave the onions out.

That’s the entire point of elimination diet, but he’s been on this completely meat eating diet for like almost a year now, I believe, probably even more than that. 

Mike: It’s amazing how resilient the body is. That’s amazing that it can survive on such a nutritionally bankrupt diet. 

Kurtis: Yeah. And the other thing is the friend when it comes to Peterson, it’s when you just talk about diet or whatever, like he admits that he’s not an expert in diet.

At the very least, I appreciate that. But he mentioned how he had apple cider once, and it damn near incapacitated him for a month. And it’s dude. You’re literally a glass house right now, and there’s a little crack, and you’re incapacitated because of a fermented apple. Humans are evolutionarily designed to be trash compactors who can eat literally anything, and a fermented apple K.

O’d you for a month. Not only K. O’d. You’re not in a good intestinal state 

Mike: right now. But didn’t, he said that he didn’t sleep for 30 days or something. And I think that was. 

Kurtis: Oh, 

Mike: he was just aggrandizing it. I forget who was interviewing him. They were like, wait a minute. You’re saying you literally, he’s yo, if he truly did not sleep for 

Kurtis: 30 days, he’d be. 

Mike: He’d be dead. Of course. No, but he was saying that he was like, literally, I think it was. I drank the apple cider and then I didn’t sleep for 30 days. No, actually that didn’t happen. No. I’m sorry that didn’t happen. So why are you even saying this? 

Kurtis: I think a better interpretation would be I did not sleep well for 30 days because I have met people in the past who I mean if I remember he emphasized like not even a wink 

Mike: literally did not sleep 

Kurtis: that was the point like his Joe Rogan interview when he said that before that was 

Mike: it Rogan I remember seeing a clip and I was like 

Kurtis: he was on the Joe Rogan show when he said that But that was quite literally the point where I stopped being a diehard fan boy and only became a regular fan boy See as soon as he started talking about die, it’s bro I respect you because you’re a field, but this is my field.

So with all due respect, shut the fuck up. 

Mike: Yeah. Just go back to refusing to use people’s pronouns. Yeah, exactly. Like that stuff I can understand and all that, but go back to OG Peterson. Get away from this new age 

Kurtis: shit. On the other note, I have met people who had. for their entire lives. I had no problems with sleeping because they define themselves as people who went to bed and then just fell asleep for eight hours.

Head hits the pillow. Boom. It’s the morning now. Honestly, that’s a superpower. I want 

Mike: that. I used to have it, dude. I lost it. I used to have it, but once I had kids, I don’t know if it’s ever coming back. 

Kurtis: Yeah. Like I’ve never had that, but I’ve met some people who had it and lost it. And when they wake up three times in a single night, they’ve come to me panicking saying, Oh my God, I’m getting like literally no sleep.

I just can’t sleep at all. How long just sleep? Eight hours, but I never slept. You can’t sleep for eight hours and then not sleep for eight hours. Okay. Maybe I woke up for one hour. So you slept for seven hours. Yes, but it was hard. No, it wasn’t. 

Mike: Yeah, no. Try waking up every hour and a half. Try that. 

Kurtis: Or just laying in bed staring at the ceilings thinking, God damn, it would be nice if the sun rose right now so I can leave this place.

Yeah, that’s no fun. Anyways, I need to like segue back into metabolic flexibility. 

Mike: So the last thing I think what you were laying out is like some signs that you might be lacking in this department and could benefit from changing up your diet a bit and not eating such a maybe as a high carb or such a high fat, low carb diet exclusively forever.

Kurtis: If you’re on a high carb diet, but there is no abnormalities to your lifestyle whatsoever. Then feel free to continue with a high carb diet. But be aware that if you are on a high carb diet for too long, you could be susceptible to sugar crashes, and you could become over reliant on meal frequency. If, as a high carb dieter, you can’t go just half a day without eating food, your body’s probably not in the best health state.

It’s got too adapted to using carbs, not enough to fats. Conversely, if you’re on a high fat diet, like keto, for example, or just if carbohydrates are below 20 percent of your caloric intake, and you have a high glycemic index carb, Say, a cupcake or a slice of cake, whatever, and that turns you into some raging binge eating monster, your body’s not in a healthy state.

Again, that’s not a good thing. But of course, if you are on a ketosis diet and you have a muffin and you’re fine, continue on as normal. There’s nothing wrong with that. But for people who are accustomed to these two diets and they’ve figured out that like their body just can’t handle the other energy source all that well, it may be prudent to go into some sort of cyclic manner of a diet would be the best way to say it.

There’s two ways to do this. The first is intermittent fasting, which will probably be more, enticing to people. Who have a high carb diet because to do an intermittent fasting, you need to just fast for half your waking hours, about eight hours straight. That alone will train your body to go without carbs for a while.

And then the last eight hours when you work out, you can just eat all the carbs you want. And the meal sizes get a bit bigger. For people who want a high fat diet and want to go through a cyclic approach, I would recommend doing an approach that has different dietary requirements each day of the week.

But you define two days in the week as high carbohydrate days. Now, high carbohydrate does not need to be too high overall. Just high relative to what you’re taking in. So if you’re on a keto diet, 30 percent carbs may be high for you. And that’s fine for the cyclic approach. But then the other days, the medium ones would be like 10 percent carbs, maybe 15 percent carbs.

And then the low days, which would take the majority of it. So let’s do a Three low days, two medium, two high approach. And you just try to do like a little sine curve throughout the week. The low days would be true ketosis. The moderate days would be 10 percent low glycemic index carbs. So I’m going to 

Mike: say, I guess it would be, you could think of this as, it’s in your toolbox.

And if you notice some of the negative effects that Curtis, that you’ve been out, it’s this is you pull this out of the toolbox and do this for a couple of weeks and see how you feel. 

Kurtis: Yeah, pretty much. Just because some people on keto just love the lifestyle, but they love the lifestyle so much that they stick with it even when it hurts them.

Because for as long as they have, they’re in the keto mindset, they feel like they can push forward. In a way taking them away from the keto mindset wouldn’t actually be to their benefit. So you just want to give them a small break from the keto mindset, like a sort of week long dietary vacation.

In my preference, it’d be a month or so, especially with the cyclic manner that I just mentioned. A month would probably be best, but then they just get back into the keto lifestyle after and see if they Feel more comfortable, feel more competent. 

Mike: And also then I guess get back into it and after a month or so, now have that carb again and see how do you feel this time?

Does it still send you into a tailspin or do you feel alright? 

Kurtis: Exactly. The entire thing is like just, you’re supposed to make these diets work to your benefit. And if they’re not working to your benefit, you may need to bring in a few tips and tricks to try to titrate. The diet to your benefit and doing a cyclical carb approach would be a nice tip or trick for people on keto diet.

Whereas intermittent fasting could be a very nice trick for people on a high carb diet who feel that they’ve become too reliant on frequent meals. Like I know personally speaking, like in my teenage years, I used to suffer from binge eating disorder, but it was all emotional stuff. So no matter what I did with, my actual diet.

The emotions were still there, so I had to just work that shit out myself. But after the emotions set aside, I still had the physical repercussions. of binge eating disorder, which was very parallel to, in a way, both of them. When I had any high glycemic carb, I just want more.

There have been times in my life where I’ve had 3, 000 calories over the course of 30 minutes. Nice. No, I’m talking like, a daily endeavor. I used to be a football player, so I didn’t care about body weight back then. It wasn’t a good thing, but intermittent fasting did train me. That’s 

Mike: impressive, and that was mostly carbs that when you eat that many calories?

Kurtis: Carbs and peanut butter. It was basically peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for the most part. Nice. It’s just dangerous how much peanut butter you can eat in a short period of time. That’s true. Yeah, and it doesn’t even satisfy you. 

Mike: That’s the worst part. It’s not a food that I recommend for when people are cutting.

Leave the nut butters out. They suck. 

Kurtis: Again, for 17 year olds who’s I tried eating 3000 calories a day and I’m not getting weight. You’re just like, Oh boy, you can love peanut butter. They love it. But yeah, for me, like intermittent fasting really helped with my whole binge eating stuff as soon as I got the emotions aside.

Cause It didn’t help with the emotions at all. That’s something I had to do on my own. And, I’d rather not talk about it right now. But, that’s more of a thing you need to see a psychologist for if the root of your binge eating is emotional. But as long as it’s physiological, then intermittent fasting is your cure.

The cure for, I’d say, 60 percent of you. Still worth a try 

Mike: though. And it’s also easy to incorporate. It’s easy to incorporate like for me. 

Kurtis: Cause like you wake up in the morning and you have adrenaline cortisol pretty high. So you don’t need to eat food to get energy. And then you just think maybe I should have breakfast, but then you just grab an energy drink.

Down it in your throat sugar free cause no calories and all that stuff, 

Mike: or just hit some espresso. That’s what I would do. 

Kurtis: Yeah. Espresso, a sugar free energy drink, maybe some ephedrine or whatever. Lord, maybe some pulse. You just pulse definitely recommendation. Yep. That’s the key. But yeah, you just shove a stimulant in your face while your cortisol and adrenaline high, and then you just get the hell away from your kitchen and start doing work.

And eight hours can pass. Pretty easily once you’re amped on the desire to do work and after those eight hours you think oh my fast is done I can actually eat now and then you just enjoy a meal Obviously don’t go like complete binge mode but you can have a nice sizable meal because you didn’t eat for the previous eight hours and you just do this for a few months and Your body gets used to not eating.

And when your body gets used to not eating, it gets desensitized the idea of eating too much. So it really helps with binge eating stuff from my experience. 

Mike: Again, I do that twice a week. Usually I’ll just skip breakfast on the weekends on my non trainers. I usually do some cardio, but I’m not lifting on the weekends and I’m in a deficit.

So I’ll just skip breakfast and start eating. I don’t know. Maybe around noon or one or something. 

Kurtis: Yeah. Like even my mother does intermittent fasting and she’s an Italian chef. So if she can do it, anyone can. If an Italian chef can just go, yeah, I’m just not going to eat right now. Then what’s your excuse?

Mike: Strong woman. 

Kurtis: Oh yeah, totally. Out of all the women of her age group that I’ve seen women who like, I don’t know, they like play checkers and stuff. And then I’ve seen some women just I’m just going to read a book. Book and then maybe cook some beans. And then my mom’s just yeah, I just got done with my work.

I’m going to throw some axes now. Do you want to join me? It’s yes, ma’am. 

Mike: That’s what we need for 

Kurtis: she’s a little bit too Viking 

Mike: for an Italian for the upcoming conflagration. That’s going to consume everything. She’ll be useful. We need the Viking Italians. She can swoop down South and maybe save us in our impending civil war.

Kurtis: You Americans can’t complain about that. Come on. Canada is just like. But, that’s another topic for another day. 

Mike: In some ways, of course. But in terms of just social and racial tensions and division, probably not. Pretty extreme. 

Kurtis: We have a human rights tribunal up here and yes, tribunal, like the Warhammer 40K stuff.

That’s a good choice of word. I like it. It’s the legal word. It’s literally tribunal. 

Mike: They should just go all in and call it an inquisition. 

Kurtis: They probably will. There’s some guy in BC, regardless of our listeners views on transgenderism, because I know it’s a somewhat hot topic, there is a politician who is a transgender woman.

Male body, female mind. She was running for political office, and this guy said, I refuse to acknowledge this person’s a woman, which is, falls under free speech. And so then he started posting up. You mean hate speech, bigot. It eventually fell under hate speech because this person then made posters saying this politician claims that they are a woman, but they are a man because blah, blah, blah, maybe a little bit of Christian mentality in there.

And all they did was just staple these posters to telephone polls in their town. So they obeyed all laws. They were fined 55, 000 for a hate crime by the tribunal, the Inquisition got him. And then there’s another case, I think it might have been Ontario, but I might be wrong about that, where somebody wore shoes into a Muslim’s house, and just to clarify for American viewers, If you go up to Canada, do not wear shoes in our houses.

It’s actually like a social sin up here. You’re just walking around like mud and grass and shit and all that. And you don’t wear those shoes inside the house. You take them off before you enter. 

Mike: That should be obvious, even, or I know it’s not here. And most people do that, but it’s still bad etiquette even here.

Kurtis: But it’s hardcore in Canada. You take one step with your dirty boots and your Canadian house. The idea of politeness just evaporates. Bruv. The fuck you doing? It’s all the Canadian rage and like the freaking, the sauce spiked hockey sticks covered in barbed wire start coming out and it’s take off your shoes mate.

First he had doused in maple syrup and yeah, . Oh yeah. ’cause it is flammable. Definitely. But so he wore shoes into a family’s house and the family happened to be Muslim. And apparently like he said whoops, my bad, or whatever. But he didn’t say it in a polite way. He was confrontational.

Cause he was a dick. But he was fined 12, 000, not because he wore shoes in a house, but because he was religiously offensive. So yeah, do you have these tributals down in America? 

Mike: Not yet. They’re coming though. Oh man, don’t allow that to happen. Now it’s the court of public opinion. That’s how it is right now.

It’s coming. Oh, yeah. It’s not formalized, but it’s getting to a point where it’s like a de facto tribunals. We have, if you think the wrong thoughts or say the wrong words, you could be effectively unpersoned. 

Kurtis: Ah, yes, the Jones ing, 

Mike: as we call it. I wonder if he’ll if he ever get back on those platforms, that’ll be a big day for him.

If that ever happens. 

Kurtis: Nah, I feel like Jones is probably going to go through like a whole Phoenix thing where he’s not going to get back on the platforms. Or even if he did the option, he’d probably refuse it, but there’s probably going to be some platform in the future that Goes on to the market by saying hey everyone.

We got Alex Jones, and then he’s just gonna Explode from like his egg of oppression is like gay frogs And then everyone flucks the platform because of it 

Mike: the rallying cry There’s not just him. There are quite a few people that, and you already see that where markets move slowly, but that is what will happen.

And that’s one of the kind of libertarian arguments, right? Of Oh, just make your own Facebook, bro. If you don’t like it and make your own YouTube yeah. Okay. It’s not that easy anymore. Between Facebook, Twitter, Google, and their different properties, there is the modern public square really.

But you’d think that given enough time, if free markets are allowed to work, at least. Semi efficiently, that is what will happen is the reaction will be true open and free platforms. Not necessarily even because obviously existing platforms skew very left. We don’t necessarily even need platforms that are skewing right.

We just need to go back to the pre neutral stuff. Yeah, exactly. The pre psychotic phase. 

Kurtis: Yeah. I remember seeing a comic or whatever. I don’t remember the Artist name I think was Stonewall or something, but it was basically just a picture of a guy who was like unplugging one website It’s oh you don’t like us unplugging this website.

Why don’t you make your own website next panel? Oh, you don’t like us unplugging your social media Why don’t you make your own social media? Then the other one was in commentary to Patreon and Mastercard pulling out some of this stuff. Oh, you don’t like this? Why don’t you make your own bank? Then it’s Oh, you don’t like this?

Why don’t you make your own government shit? Exactly. 

Mike: Sweating bullets at the end. Exactly. Taken to its logical extreme. Yeah. Pretty much. That requires like forethought and whatever, dude, you just, you just live, you just do whatever feels right in the moment. If it feels right to ban, you just ban.

Kurtis: The more I learned about politics, the more I’m interested in just like getting into hunting culture. It’s Oh, look at all this things that the rich people are doing and lying about. But then I’m just going to go into the forest, get my own food. Food now, but I just got to shoot an elk and eat it.

It’s that’s a good 

Mike: retort. I guess after the conflagration, you’ll be able to, yeah, 

Kurtis: like once everything crashes and burning, I’ll know how to get my own food. It’s Hey guys, one elk too bad. What do you got for me? Yeah. One other topic I wanted to mention. And when it comes to metabolic flexibility.

Mike: Yeah, I was going to say, okay, so segue back to metabolic flexibility. It’d be like, see, if you’re only eating elk, then eventually you’d need to improve your metabolic flexibility. So 

Kurtis: there’s one other topic that I don’t know too much about it, but I’ve seen some studies investigating it is when it comes to exercise in and of itself.

Cause anaerobic stuff uses carbohydrates primarily, and aerobic stuff uses fatty acids primarily. You might theoretically have somebody who is great at lifting weights, and then they have really bad cardio, but it’s not due to their cardiorespiratory capacities, but their metabolic flexibility, cause they just can’t have enough energy for a long run.

Or they just It’s like behind a lot. Then you have people who are like amazing endurance runners. And it was like, Oh, I can run a hundred miles in one day at an incredible pace. Oh, I can’t even lift 30 pound dumbbells. And of course, there’s a lot of variables here. There could just be the actual muscularity of the person.

There could be the, training specificity of the person, but I will send you the links later so you can put it in the description, but fish oil supplementation. has in a few studies shown that the rate of which the muscle cells can go from carbohydrate utilization to fat utilization and vice versa is increased.

If you have a sport, say hockey, which every now and then you just have to go through like really rapid bursts, like just all completely anaerobic stuff that you can’t keep up for more than 15 seconds, And then you need to keep active for the next 30 seconds or whatever just cruising, say if you’re on defense or you’re a goalie or whatever.

Then, you need to be able to switch the two energy sources on the fly for your athletics. And fish oil seems to actually be a viable supplement for that. Interesting. How much did you need to take? It was definitely more than the super low doses of the 180, 120. blend, like the 300 milligram stuff, that’s the lowest dose, but I don’t think it was the highest dose either.

I’ll send you the studies, but I think it was around one gram of EPA plus DHA. 

Mike: Oh, very doable. What you should be, I guess that’s it’s almost just a basic health dose, right? 

Kurtis: When it comes to athletes, yes. But when it comes to just like the average person, the basic health dose is the 180, 120 milligram or 300 milligrams EPA plus DHA.

That’s the lowest supplemental dose and it’s the one that’s It’s recommended to everybody with some medical doctors saying, eh, maybe not go higher. But for athletes, usually athletes always have over a gram of EPA plus 

Mike: THA. Neat. Another reason to just take fish oil every day or I don’t know, krill oil, or I guess those are probably two best sources.

When you get into ALA sources, you run into absorption difficulties, right? 

Kurtis: For ALA stuff. Yeah. But krill oil stuff is really weird. I don’t like krill oil. At all, to be honest. Really? Because it’s the exact same as EPA plus DHA, except it’s absorbed faster. But absorption speed is not an issue when it comes to fish oils.

You just want it in your body. You want the overall absorption rate. It’s the exact same. So if krill oil and fish oil were the exact same price, then you can choose either one you want. But krill oil is three times the price of fish oil. 

Mike: Yep. I don’t know if we ever bothered even getting quotes on krill oil because we decided early on, you remember when you were working on fish oil with me, we decided on fish oil right away.

So I don’t know if it’s like a collagen protein thing where collagen protein is cheap as fuck. It’s just a scam. You, they sell it for a bunch of money. So is it just a margins thing? Or I guess the opposite. It’s just expensive to produce then as well. So like our costs would be, quite a bit higher.

And then we just have to pass that on to customers. 

Kurtis: Yeah, because when it comes to say a protein, whey protein is one of the standards, another standard could be soy concentrate and then egg protein could also be a standard. They have different parameters for being called standard. But they’re all a reference point.

They’re a starting point. And if you want to sell something and say it’s better than way you need to use way as the standard and then prove it’s better than the way, but fish oil from like cold water. Low predatory fish, sardines, herring, all that stuff. That’s the standard. And so you have all these other things like krill oil and seal oil coming forward, and they fail to prove that they’re better than fish oil.

They don’t have any evidence. They don’t have any logic. They just have a bunch of nonsensical buzzwords. And they try to say that there are premium fish oil, which warrants a higher price. But they fail to prove that they’re actually better than fish oil. So we use fish oil and it’s cheapest form because it works and nothing works better than that.

Mike: We have an expensive form. The re esterified ethyl esters is expensive. Just straight ethyl ester form is the cheapest, which we decided not to use. 

Kurtis: Yeah. I forgot about that. I meant the actual fish that we’re hunting down. We did modify it a little bit. That did raise the price a wee bit, but we’re still using the cheap fish.

We’re not using krill and we’re not using seals. Whoever the hell marketed seal oil, I need to hunt down. And I’m a Canadian when it comes to seals and hunting, I’m getting my club. I know how to do this. Gonna get your shekels selling seal oil. No, man, you have to protect the seals now. Is that a thing now is the seal bashing?

Has it come to an end? There’s a meme about seal bashing, of course, the actual bashing part of seals is not really allowed on international or even national markets, but we will allow it when it comes to some Inuit populations up in the territories who need to actually. Kill something to eat for the night.

So they can bash seals and all that, but we don’t allow any large industries to come in and collectively bash thousands of baby seals. We did that in the past and it was not good because turns out that seals are cute. They’re the puppy dogs of the ocean. And bashing them in the back of the head does not give off good PR vibe.

Was it like a tourist almost type thing where people would pay to go out to bash seals? It almost got to that point. It became so prominent for a while. Because when it first became prominent, no one in Canada knew that this stuff was going on. Because the territories are incredibly sparse. The entire territories of Yukon, Northwest Territories, Nunavut, They have very low populations, and frankly speaking, no one in Canada cares about them, unfortunately.

So when they do stuff, we don’t really pay attention to them. So when they were bashing seals and making industries off of it, we didn’t care. And then they started to say, Hey, you want to bash baby seals? Come up here. We can have a bunch of baby seals. We’ve got a club. We can teach you how to bash things.

Yeah, baby seals. They go BAM! You hit them. 

Mike: I guess you like, you graduate, I’ve seen that these things in Japan where I’m sure they’re elsewhere, but I remember seeing them in Japan where you go to a place and you can just break stuff to release your rage. You can just break faces. I’ve seen that in plates and just random shit.

Kurtis: No, but I reminded the legend of Zelda all of a sudden. Why? So legend of Zelda is a video game, right? 

Mike: Maybe I played one of the Zelda games a while ago. 

Kurtis: Okay, but you know how Link goes around and breaks all the pots? Ah yes, exactly. Yeah, there’s a lot of jokes about how Link is just actually a psychopath, and he just like runs in people’s houses, breaks everything, steals all their money, and runs away.

Then everyone’s just the heck is the hero of time doing? Link’s just I got my rupees. Then he like breaks more pots and stuff, so like I immediately 

Mike: think of American Psycho, the In the end, when he’s chasing the hooker with the chainsaw, he gets her and he’s 

Kurtis: aaaah! Yeah, that, that would be Link.

Perfect. But yeah, so as soon as the actual majority of Canadians knew that we were bashing seals up north, we put a stop to it. But of course, there’s the whole people need to sometimes bash seals to survive. So that still goes on. But the fact that they’re trying to sell seal oil as a supplement means that seal fat can once again be an industry.

Meaning that, especially if it’s sold in America, where else are you going to get your seals from? Russia? That’s way too far away. So you’re also going to get Canadian seals and it’s just going to like lead to major hunting and now all of a sudden all of Canadians really love the northern sea puppies.

And so we don’t like it when people hunt seals indiscriminately. Yeah. The other reason that I don’t like seal oil is because the premise of it is stupid. Oh, yeah, you’ve heard of EPA and DHA? But seal oil has DPA. It’s another fatty acid. Newsflash, all fish have DPA. We literally just didn’t care about it.

We still shouldn’t care about it. Every single fish that has EPA and DHA will have DPA. It’s not unique to seals. A friggin herring or a sardine, like you go to the grocery store. Pop open your can, just down in your face, got a bunch of DPA. There’s nothing about the seals you need to take down. But yet, some companies are like we need another word aside from fish.

What should we do? There’s fish, and there’s krill, that’s taken. Seals, yes, murdering seals is definitely going to go over well for a company. But if you can get your DPA, come on. I know, right? Do you even know what DPA does? I didn’t, and then I learned, and I still don’t bloody know what it does, because it just turns into DHA.

That’s not what Dave Asprey said, though. I know, right? It’s fucking 

Mike: I put, you said, I put it in my coffee. Full of truth, the coffee 

Kurtis: man said to kill all the innocent animals. So I guess I have to. And to get all the DPAs. But yeah, to all of you people listening, please don’t hunt our glorious sea puppies.

Mike: They’re cute. Just get your oil from ugly fish like anchovies and like mackerel and stuff. 

Kurtis: Oh, if we could ever like farm lampreys, that’d be amazing. Or blobfish. Oh my god, blobfish are so ugly, I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. 

Mike: I just recently learned about the bobbit worm. You know about the bobbit worm?

Kurtis: Vaguely. 

Mike: Yes. Just check it out after. Wait, is that the tongue one? No, it’s a sandworm that, these things can grow up to I don’t know, 30 meters long. Oh, that’s fine. They burrow the, they burrow, it’s like a sarlacc monster from Star Wars. They burrow themselves down in the sand. They have no brains, and they have these hooked jaws that open up and Click into place.

They have some antenna that are in the middle and when fish that they can sense the movement of fish. And I think also shadows. So if there’s, if the light gets obstructed, then 

Kurtis: they shoot out of the sand, yeah. And 

Mike: then they’re hooked bony, almost they’re like long hooks of jaws. Just grab the fish and just pull them down into the sand.

And the fish is just gone. 

Kurtis: That’s cool. Actually. I like that. They can grab 

Mike: some bigger fish too. 

Kurtis: Have you heard about the I don’t know the species name, but it’s the tongue replacing parasite. Basically, there’s some parasites in the ocean that they will pretend to be prey, so a fish eats them.

But then they do that just so they get in the fish’s mouth. And then they chew off the fish’s tongue, and then they become the fish’s tongue. Is this a tongue eating louse? I don’t know what a louse is. A 

Mike: disgusting little 

Kurtis: bug. Very similar, then yes. Because There are some people who hunt at the deep sea and they find fish and they open the fish’s mouth, there’s just an insect on the tongue.

Yeah. Tongue eating house. It became the tongue. The entire thing is that you want to be there because once the fish eats more food, it gets first grabs at all the foods that goes into the oral cavity. It will survive. And it also is cutting off bleeding from the actual fish and it allows the fish to retain symbiotic relationship.

Yeah. It’s just fucking creepy as hell. Imagine some bug replacing your tongue and it’s No, I’d rather that not happen. 

Mike: That’s a good would you rather right there. Would you rather that or something else? That’s option A. 

Kurtis: Have an insect 

Mike: replace your tongue. A tongue eating louse replaces your tongue.

Kurtis: I’ve seen some stupid would you rathers lately. There’s ones like Would you rather become the most hideous thing in existence, but get the superpower of your choice and it’s bro, just choose shape shifting. 

Mike: Yeah. But that’d be cheating. They’d be like, now, come on, you’re not playing in good faith.

Oh, 

Kurtis: come on, man. Good faith is manipulative. It’s true. When it comes to superpowers, 

Mike: it depends how you define faith. Faith is what I can bend to my will. Exactly. The strong do it. They will in the week suffer what they must. 

Kurtis: Also, I have to say that when I’m looking at my notes for this interview, I do have an entire section about Bruce Lee flow.

Like a river is metabolic flexibility break. Like a brick is metabolic insensitivity 

Mike: deep. I like that. Yeah. I 

Kurtis: don’t know 

Mike: what I was thinking. I said that, but it’s always good to include metaphors. People like metaphors. 

Kurtis: Should have done. At the first hour. 

Mike: Who knows if anyone’s even listening at this point, this is where we can turn it loose.

We might be alone by now, but no, this is actually a great discussion. Is there anything else that you had on your outline? Anything else that you want to cover before we wrap up? 

Kurtis: No, the major thing was basically just realizing when your diet is going against you and the fact that even though you plan for X, you’re not always going to run into X.

You may run into Y. You have to be ready for both of them. So if you focus on metabolic flexibility bit, you focus on just partaking in different areas of. Athleticism, you can be prepared for anything. But beyond that it’s not something that supplements can handle all that much. It’s just, don’t do the same shit each day.

Be a bit different. And that’s pretty much it. Intermittent fasting and cycling your macronutrients, calories can help. Perfect. Don’t be boring. Don’t have a boring diet. Don’t have a boring life. And you’re good. Thanks dad. You are welcome son. Now do your homework. 

Mike: All right, Curtis. It’s been great as always.

Is there anything that is new and interesting that we should give people a heads up on maybe on the formulation front to I’m excited. For example, for the new recharge that’s coming. I’m excited for the men and women’s multivitamins. I think that’s gonna be a smart bifurcation. As smart people say, I hate that word actually.

When people say they’ll use that word instead of just like divide or split I think we should bifurcate these people into two groups. Okay buddy. 

Kurtis: Yes, and then synergize them after . 

Mike: I’m excited for the men and women’s multivitamins. What else have we got? What do we got coming? Make people horny to buy things.

Kurtis: The first reformulation should be Fortify, which is pretty much the exact same formulation, except the curcumin has been enhanced for absorption, and we don’t need black pepper anymore after that, so there may have been some instances where People did not take Fortify piperine, or the black pepper extract, could interfere with pharmaceuticals.

No longer the case, because piperine is getting dropped. Because we actually managed to find a better, and not outrageously overpriced, curcumin source. And then we added in something for neuropathic pain. Everything we had at this point in time was just for muscular pain, but if you do have any pain related to, say, The spine or the neck or just bones and nerves.

Mortify can now actually start to help you a little bit. And then beyond that we added a few other goodies that just could overall help a certain amount of people and didn’t increase the price too much. Should be pretty much the exact same price but it’s twice as good heading forward. There is of course the male and female formulation split for Triumph.

Which I’m looking forward to because there’s not as many random herbs in there anymore. They’re more well thought out, specifically chosen herbs, as well as non herbal components that just benefit everybody, regardless of their demographic. We were a little bit too haphazardous on our first formulation, and we’ve learned from that, and we’ve just made improvements henceforth.

And then finally, Phoenix, our fat burner. We are taking a bit of a change with that and we’re making it so it’s more along the lines of something you take every day and don’t need to cycle off of something that just cleanly but slowly increases the metabolic rate. But it may also end up being fat burn that you end up having to take with food, which is fine because if you want a fat burn that you take fasted, you do have forge on the side.

That’s not gonna be changing anytime soon. But yeah, Phoenix is going to be a pretty atypical and novel fat burner in the next few months because it’s taken an approach no other fat burner has before. One that you simply take with a meal to increase overall daily caloric expenditure. We have to get something that works and if we don’t have ephedrine with us, then what can we do?

All we can do is look at the evidence and say what actually increases basal metabolic rate and why and try to put them into a pill. And all the stuff I found, it doesn’t matter if it’s taken before or after exercise. Doesn’t matter whether it’s taken twice or once a day. It’s just, put this in your mouth, your basal metabolic rate increases a little bit.

And since some of them are fat soluble, you just put them in your mouth with a meal. I like it. Yeah, because in the past it was always fat burners paired with exercise, but this one literally has no need for it. If you want to pair a FAPR with exercise, go for FORGE. Get the OHIM bean in you, maybe get some over the counter ephedrine and pair that with the FORGE.

That would be the optimal approach, if you can handle the stimulation. You probably will be able to, but have to give the warning anyways. 

Mike: Makes sense. All right, man. There’s a bit more also. I said that we have a new recharge formulation coming. We have also, we have the new pulse formulation that’s rolling out now, which is cool.

That’s with the alpha GPC. We have the immunity product that’s, it was tabled previously, but I wanted to discuss that again, actually, because I think the reason why I think it was when it was being. Yeah. Discussed by the board. It was mostly, I believe, Spencer who was like meh about it, but I still thought it was interesting.

So anyways, we have more things always in the works. 

Kurtis: I can’t wait to leave. You need a product actually hits the market because we are bringing you in a compound that is not really sold in North America and yet it has enough evidence to rival pharmaceuticals. And is obscenely potent. So as soon as that gets on the 

Mike: shelves, you can get it.

It’s just hard to get. And it’s very expensive. 

Kurtis: You have to order from Germany or something like that. 

Mike: All right, my friend, thanks again for taking the time. It’s always a pleasure and I’ll talk to you soon. 

Kurtis: Talk to you soon. 

Mike: Hey, Mike here. And if you like what I’m doing on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me Let me help more people get into the best shape of their lives.

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